Defense & National Security

Pfarrer: Bissonnette did not shoot Bin Laden

Pfarrer: Bissonnette did not shoot Bin Laden
Chuck Pfarrer

NED accounts of helo crash, firefights during the raid on bin Laden’s compound impossible

The retired Navy SEAL officer, and author of “SEAL Target Geronimo: The Inside Story of the Mission to Kill Osama bin Laden,” in an exclusive interview with Human Events, said inconsistencies in Matt Bissonnette’s memoirs of the raid on Bin Laden tell him Bisonette was not part of the entry team that shot Bin Laden.

In connection with the release of his book, Bissonnette, writing under the name Mark Owen, gave a lengthy interview on the CBS “60 Minutes” program, complete with a scale model of the Abbottabad compound.

After watching the “60 Minutes” interview and reading “No Easy Day,” Chuck Pfarrer, a former commander of the Naval Special Warfare Development Group, known as SEAL Team 6, the same team credited with the May 2 raid on Bin Laden’s compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, said he is unconvinced and confused.

Bisonette’s description of coming up the stairs to the third floor and killing Bin Laden’s son Kalid Laden and then reaching Bin Laden himself does not make sense, he said.

The Pakistanis say Kalid was shot from a higher position, he said. Two bullets hit him above the eyes that came out at the bottom of the back of his head. “There were no foot prints in the blood on the stairs,” he said. No one came up the stairs past Kalid on to the third floor.

“I am convinced he was not part of the entry team,” he said.

An equally glaring falsehood in Bissonnette’s book, “No Easy Day,” involved how and when the entry team reached Bin Laden and the book’s bizarre account of the helicopter crash, Pfarrer said.

Bissonnette claims the Black Hawk carrying the insertion team crashed upon its approach on one of the interior walls in the compound, he said. There is no way the Black Hawk landed with its tail on the wall with front and back rotors continuing to spin as the assault team members and flight crew egressed for the mission without rotors hitting the ground or personnel.

“An object 77 feet, six inches perched on a 15-foot wall would certainly have a rotor strike,” he said.

“It is simple trigonometry.”

“Saying that this thing landed with its tail on the wall and its nose in the dirt and that miraculously — and he uses that word, didn’t have a rotor strike, that is completely implausible,” he said.

Pfarrer said he cannot understand why Bissonnette would make up key parts of the story.

“I honestly don’t know what the motivation could be,” he said.

“Let’s not even talk about my sources, Mohamed Bashir, Bin Laden’s closest neighbor, said he saw the helicopter land on the roof and he saw people jump out of the helicopter off the roof into the third floor terrace,” he said.  “Bissonnette’s story differs from every from every single person I have spoken to, and every person the Pakistanis spoke to.”

In addition to speaking to members of SEAL Team 6, who were on the raid, Pfarrer, a retired SEAL officer, had accessed to the 150-page report produced by Pakistani security forces, he said. The White Paper by a very well-respected Pakistani Army general is the basis for much of the new information he included in the soon to be released edition of “SEAL Target Geronimo.”

Urban warfare doctrine calls for taking a building from the top down when possible, he said.

“Everyone I talk to, the assaulters, they all say the same thing,” he said. “Successful insertion on the roof, and bin Laden’s business was over in 90 to 120 seconds.”

Instead of fast roping, the Black Hawk landed the assaulters directly on the roof, he said. The assaulters then crashed through a two windows onto the Bin Laden’s compartments on the third floor.

“The helicopter remained on the roof for 10, 12, 18 minutes — it was on there,” he said. Then once the shooting was over, the helicopter was supposed to then move park in the compound yard, staged to pick people up and take them out.

It was moving from the roof to the staging position that the helicopter crashed, he said.

The only possible explanation for Bissonnette’s narrative is that out of respect for the Task Force 160 pilots and flight crew, Bissonnette concocted his version of the crash, putting the crash as part of the insertion, so as to deflect from the obvious pilot error that cost the mission one of its aircraft, he said.

“The Task Force 160 guys are the best,” he said. “Even in my own book, I tried to treat the crash as gently as possible.”

“Here’s the other outstanding thing in Bissonnette’s story, he’s trying to say it was 15 minutes before they got to the third floor,” he said.

“How is possible that Bin Laden would wait in his room 15 minutes for the attackers to come get him,” he said. “It can’t happen that way”

“Are we really supposed to think that his shots are the ones that got Bin Laden, and it was 15 minutes after his boots hit the ground that he finally made it to the third floor and engaged?” he said.

Pfarrer said he agrees with Bissonnette’s account that Bin Laden had a pistol and rifle in his room, but it is bizarre that after a helicopter crash, three explosive breeches and a firefight coming up the stairs, Bin Laden had not yet reached for his firearms.

“That’s where the whole thing falls apart,” he said.

“I have a hard time explaining any of this,” he said. “I’ve been on missions, and I don’t talk about where I was and when I engaged people, I don’t know, it’s unfathomable.  He is now making himself the biggest target in the world.”

Sign Up
  • CaptainAhab

    I don’t believe ANYTHING the Obama administration has said about Bin Laden’s death. They supposedly killed the most wanted man on earth, and instead of proving their story, they say that they dumped his body in the ocean?! Sounds extremely fishy to me.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Damon-Beckett/100000512804300 Damon Beckett

    Just shut the hell up “HEROES”

  • giatny

    A guy that wrote another book about the raid is disputing the Seal that was
    actually there. Sorry, but I’ll stick with the one who was there. It’s funny we
    haven’t heard anything about the Pentagon going after Pfarrer for writing
    about the raid. Perhaps Pfarrer’s account agrees with the WH version.

  • Guest

    The main issue with the “trigonometry” is the assumption is made as to the exact position of where the tail hit. Further back and the Trig argument fails! As I recall images of the “special” tail rotor were public and it clearly shows it broken much further back the boom almost at the tail.

  • Reactant

    His triangle trigonometry nonsense is complete garbage (or at least how it’s portrayed here). For somebody who is quite confident in his “simple trigonometry,” he’s pretty poor at it. Now, I don’t know if he made the images, but whoever did should be fired, as soon as possible. Honestly. They can’t even use the Pythagorean Theorem right. It’s just plain embarrasssing, there are so many things wrong with it.
    To use a triangle like that in the first place is just silly – you need a data point to locate the position of the nose of the helicopter, which is crucial. You’d have to use a trapezoid, or a different triangle at the very least.
    Also, that whole train of thought is completely dependent on the point of contact on the tail boom. I was just messing around with the dimensions in AutoCAD, and I can make the helicopter rest fine on the wall, without the helicopter blades hitting the ground. Then again, I don’t know where the boom hit the wall (which dictates the angle of the helicopter), so I’m going in blind here. Maybe he’s piecing it together from intact wreckage, I don’t know.

  • Guest

    In fact the trig get even sketchier as you look at all of the varied measurements used: 77′ 6″ by Pffarrer, 64’10″ in official dimensions and the calculated numbers used in the diagram are all over the place. The calculated b2 would have buried the nose of the helo deep into the ground using the assumption that the rotors did not deflect on impact. Using a angle consisting of the helo length and then calculating the position of the rotors based on that positioning would likely provide a more accurate calculation.

  • Vlad Wallachia

    His whole article is meant to distract…..most of the Idiots that vote for BHO, would never understand the “Trig”, so therefore, to them, it would sound possible.

  • Henry Ford

    No one should be writing books about this operation, “leaking’ information about it, or officially discussing it in any way. Doing so jeopardizes our national security and gives aid and comfort to our enemies. Can you imagine anyone in WWII so close to the events giving away detailed information about the D-Day assault?

    I also have no faith and trust in the current administration that I would believe anything they say either confirming or denying the information. I wouldn’t put it past them that they fabricated the whole thing given their penchant for lies. No, I don’t have any “conspiracy theory” about it, I just don’t trust Obama, any democrat, and more than a few republicans.

  • 18bravo

    It appears the WH has sent in the distraction teams. anything they can do to discredit the book, to cause doubt, to keep obama verison in the light and truth as they see it, only people who knows what, how, when are the ones that were there….

  • http://www.facebook.com/indian2001 Robin J. Welch

    It is what it is. believe what you want to believe but the fact remains the same. if our government was involved in this. then it has to be all made up and it never happened!!

  • H. Johnson

    Soooooo, a guy who was not there is disputing the story of the guy who was there based on math that doesn’t necessarily work and I’m supposed to take this as gospel. Human Events’ credibility is going down hill fast.

  • http://twitter.com/itchingtogo JP

    The actual photos show the chopper backed up against the wall and the tail broken off. Seems pretty obvious to me that Owens told the truth. About the chopper anyway.

  • Dustoff

    As helo pilot myself. They would flared as they came into the LZ.
    Was there a chance the tail hit the wall. Yep. It also depends on the speed they entered the compound. Which I would think, would be pretty darn fast.

  • BrennusBains

    More Obama/Panetta disinformation designed to marginalize and obfuscate military whistleblowers who refuse to toe the Obama line.

    Bring back the draft. The volunteer military has turned into a elitist corp of hired assassins with more focus on expertism than on patriotism.

  • Frank Capra

    This is such shoddy work on these graphics (and story). First, the helicopter, according to Owen (the SEAL) landed on the load-bearing part of the tail, not where your graphics place it. Second, there WAS supposed to be a roof insertion, but not by Owen’s copter (again, I’m just going by his testimony in the 60 Minutes piece). Finally, why are you not UNDERSCORING in vivid color the fact that this retired officer has a serious financial stake in Owens’ account being false!! Come on, guys. And by the way, the retired SEAL officer has also been publicly discredited by SEALS in numerous statements leaked to the media.

  • Frank Capra

    One last thing: besides all the problems already noted with the poor “trigonometry” argument, we’re all basing our assumptions on an unmodified helo. The tail rotor blades on the heavily modified Blackhawk were certainly shorter than “normal” — whose to say that the main rotor was not similarly modified (within reason to the laws of aerodynamics) as well?

  • Joe G

    Add me to the “trigonometry” fiasco. While I have ordered the book it has not arrived yet. In the 60 minutes interview, Owen did not say that he shot Bin Laden. A most misleading headline to this article. This article is below Human Events.

  • doug63

    It’s not trigonometry, it’s a simple triangle. It depends where you draw the triangle whether or not the main rotor hits the ground. Also take into effect the heavily laden blackhawk should have crusned the 15′ wall to some degree. I believe the author and our men in uniform. Pffarer is a monday morning quarterbacvk.

  • Altosackbuteer

    But WAS Bissonnette / Owen REALLY there?
    ***
    I am quite willing to consider arguments why he wasn’t.
    ***
    By the way, KUDOS to Human Events for going with this story. It just goes to show, conservatives are, foremost, interested in THE TRUTH; liberals continue to insist that the Swift Boaters lied about Kerry.

  • Altosackbuteer

    From the diagrams above, it does not appear possible that the tail rotor could have struck the wall, if ANY part of the tail section rested on it. It also APPEARS possible that if the very tip of the tail had stuck on the wall, this would have lessened the angle of the landing, perhaps enough to lift the front rotor away from the ground.

  • Altosackbuteer

    To the contrary — Human Events’ willingness to air the issue, even if it indirectly helps Øbama Øsama, is highly laudable.

  • Altosackbuteer

    In the end, perhaps we attribute this to the Fog of War. It’s night; things are happening fast, and NOT according to plan. Under such circumstances, it’s ENTIRELY reasonable to suppose that different individuals report different things, and all are doing their best to tell the truth.
    ***
    C’est le guerre.

  • charles17121

    18bravo , If anyone really believes it was actually Bin laden that killed by seal team 6 in 2011, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell them . The more pertinent question should be why did they dump the body at sea . And isn’t it convenient that Bin Laden is kill just as Jerome Corsi Ph.D. book comes out .”Where’s the Birth Certificate The case That Barack Obama is Not Eligible to Be President ? Kind of makes one wonder doesn’t it ?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7H4EQGZ7DXXT7Y7VSSES5NTDXA King 58

    Did this guy even watch the interview???
    The Seal NEVER said HE killed Bin Laden, it was the “Point” man that did!
    Get the FACTS before you print this crap!!

  • bobfrommosinee

    Excuse me, But Pfarrer, You didn’t know all the members of Your team by name? and You were their commander.

    Strange, How many months did you train with them? And the entry team would be a small select group, and all You can claim is Bissonnette couldn’t be a member of the entry team because according to your remembrances there are inconsistencies?

  • http://www.facebook.com/rwyatthaines Raeman Haines

    Interesting question . If he wasn’t really there how can he know what transpired ? And I have heard that Bin Laden was dead within the first mins of the raid . No long fire fights and shoot outs as the White House version would have us believe .
    Were that the case , why did the Pakistani Military or police respond to the shooting . As I understand it that both had compounds within a hundred yards or so of the bin Laden compound .
    What is it with Liberals that they need to twist events to suit their idea of history ?

  • http://www.facebook.com/rwyatthaines Raeman Haines

    They had to feed Moby Dick .

  • http://www.facebook.com/rwyatthaines Raeman Haines

    And lets not forget crush and bend the tail assembly upward allowing the nain body of the Copter to come down at a shallower angle . The air photos of the burned wreckage showed the copter well in from the wall and more parallel to it than at a right angle to it .

    Also I read where the Seal Team Leader took issue with the chronology of the event . He did state the bin Laden was dead with in the first moments of entering the compound . Within the first two mins as the came DOWn from the roof not up from the first floor as in the White House official version . In short , someone is lying . Given Barry O’s track record I then to go with the word of the boots on the ground boys

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Benjamin-Fox/1417763559 Benjamin Fox

    OSB died at Tora Bora, get over all the crap, how did he go over the mountains with a kidney machine? No body could, buried under ton’s of dirt and kept alive by islamist and the lame stream media. Both are jokes.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Killgo/1637085325 Steve Killgo

    The Tail and rotor broke off! Being tailless the bird would have hit on it’s belly. Didn’t you see the debris on the ground outside the compound? Bit of real bad flying though!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Killgo/1637085325 Steve Killgo

    Now! What prof do we have that was Usama Bin Ladin? NONE!

  • Froggy

    SEALs love exposing liars. If someone claims to have been a SEAL but never was, the SEALs go out of their way to expose them publicly. If Owen had not been there, the SEALs would have exposed him for that. Since the SEALs are silent on that, you can rest assured he was there and was behind the point man.

  • Froggy

    Also, this was a highly modified helicopter. What do we really know about it?

  • Altosackbuteer

    It is POSSIBLE that the SEALs WOULD like to expose Bissonnette (assuming it’s true that he wasn’t there), but are under orders to remain silent.
    ***
    Nevertheless, your argument is persuasive.

  • Altosackbuteer

    Is it not true that Bissonette claims to have shot ObL’s SON, and not from above but from below?

  • 18bravo

    I agree with the no body theory, problem is we will never know the truth…………..

  • Froggy

    While you are right that SEALs could be under orders not to say a thing, Ex-SEALs are the ones who do most of the exposing since they are no longer in the military. The ex-SEALs would be sounding this all over the internet.

  • justinwachin

    Those seeking to claim credit for killing Osama bin Laden are likely to meet an unhappy end. If there are any al Qaeda operatives left in the U.S. I can’t help but believe they are going to start killing the families of those who claim to have killed bin Laden. After these “heroes” have lost their families they will then probably be captured, tortured and killed.

    Like most people I would be interested in hearing the details about how this was carried out, but I’m not sure that these books are in the nation’s best interest. The less that people know about Seal Team 6 operations the better things are likely to be in future assaults.

  • Altosackbuteer

    However, your original posting implied that the actual SEALs who were on the raid could and would have outted Bissonette. Ex-SEALs, of course, could not tell us from personal knowledge who did the raid.

  • Froggy

    They dumped the body at sea so that people could not make a pilgrimage to his grave. In most of the Muslim world, UBL was a hero. It’s weird for an American to see kids wearing t-shirts that pay homage to UBL like we do to celebrities. We are under the misguided impression that the world thought UBL was a villain. Unfortunately, they didn’t.

  • Altosackbuteer

    It doesn’t make me wonder one little bit. As far as Øbama Øsama would be concerned, he himself personally debunked Corsi’s book when he answered the question which is in the very title of Corsi’s book — “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” Shortly before the book came out, Øbama answered that question — he produced his long-form birth certificate.
    ***
    Could that be fake? Possibly, but UNlikely. The burden of proof is now on YOU to show why it might be.
    ***
    But in any event, I’m confident that ANY state Secretary of State would take that birth certificate and use it to certify Øbama’s ballot eligibility.

  • Froggy

    True. But from my understanding (which is not from the inside) it is a tight community. Certainly the current guys would tell the guys who could talk. Of course, I’m an outsider, so it is merely my belief. And if the WH or DOD wanted to expose Owen as a fraud, they would not tell current guys they couldn’t talk about Owen. In fact, that would have been the first thing the WH would have said.

  • MissSterious

    Ex-SEALs and several other SF operators know Bissonette very well and all vouch for him, whether they agree with his book or not.

  • sickofit6

    Curious, where is this guy in the photo above. Camo’s, AR, radio and sidearm. Is that suppose to make him more believable or more laughable? Wonder who he’s talking to? MacRaven? Got the feeling he’s got some sour grapes for “No Easy Day” being more inside the story than his inside story of the assault.

  • http://www.facebook.com/edwin.hoffman Edwin Hoffman

    This is a not so clever attempt to muddy the waters and make people believe the book is fake. Just like every other time the Socialists try and cover up truth with lies (which is almost every time they release information).

  • stvenkng

    This whole thing is messed up, Bissonette could not possibly have not shot Bin Laden because I didn’t shoot Bin Laden..

  • I read it,did you?

    no it isn’t true. as king58 stated, in the interview he said the point man shot him, as well as in his book he states the same thing. he never said he shot him. not once.

  • Joseph C Moore USN Ret

    “Transpired” only means what was relayed about an event that “occurred”. This information that someone “transpired” is not necessarily all the information about what “occurred”. “Occurred” is the proper, definitive word to use.

  • Joseph C Moore USN Ret

    Could the long form birth certificate be fake? It has been debunked by many experts as a fraudulent manufactured document produced by such a mundane system as “Photo Shop”, and is not a true copy of a (one) birth certificate, but composed of bits of many documents to appear as one. The deception is extremely widespread by the colluding “certifiers” of his eligibility.

  • http://www.facebook.com/danyffeler Dean Nyffeler

    I won’t talk about being caught by the Moskva sneaking out of the Black Sea in 71 because they made us swear to God we were training in the westernMediterranean. So, why would I not believe a Seal on scene over an administration approved book by someone who wasn’t there even on the same continent.

  • HortonsEgg

    Yah, Chuckers. You weren’t there. Owen (Bisso…) was.. You’re a bullshitter.

  • SGTMed

    The tail boom of the Black Hawk was bent to hell, almost broken in two. A .030 inch piece of aluminum does not stay in tact when it contacts a wall as a helicopter is decending… I don’t know what your issue is with this guy, but if you have “connections” with DEVGRU, I would think you would ask the guys there if what he said was true? I’m having second thoughts about you….

  • SGTMed

    It’s possible the blades struck the ground without actually being destroyed. 22 years working on Hueys and Blackhawks, I’ve pretty much seen it all. I didn’t question his story at all…

  • SGTMed

    Great point gianty! I remember when Pfarrer’s book came out. I was skeptical of him then and even more so now… Never purchased his book btw…

  • charles17121

    Altosackbuteer , Your name should be Obot. Do yourself a favor and pull your head out of the fraud obama’s back side so you are able to see the light . You boy the fraud and usurper obama is going down and there is nothing you and the rest of the Obot can do about it . Liberals and Obots are still waking down the Yellow brick road to never never land .

  • geekybryan

    I think it’s very poor taste on the part of Human Events as well as others here to use Mark Owen’s real name, whether they feel it’s available or not. He clearly IS a target. Also – since when do we rely upon anything the Pakistanis claim about the event? They have egg all over their face due to Osama living right out of their door, likely actually under their protection rather than the official stories they tell. I don’t know either of the men making claims, but I tend to agree with others that the Government’s reaction that Mark’s portrayal of the events would not be under such scrutiny for supposedly “revealing secrets” if it were a fabrication. The whole Trig. argument is faulty as pointed out over and over here. It’s such a shame, It seems apparent one person is out to tell the truth and the other is out to grab glory for himself.

  • Altosackbuteer

    What can I say?
    ***
    These “experts” who debunk the long-form which Øbama produced — they didn’t test the actual document which Øbama produced. They made their determinations from analysis of .jpg’s of the document.
    ***
    What can I say? The challenge was raised; Øbama responded to it., and this places the burden of proof back on to the birthers.
    ***
    Public officials in Hawaii have vouched for the existence of the actual original. There is also a Honolulu newspaper announcement of the birth. Are you seriously trying to tell me that his parents placed the announcement there, knowing that someday he’d run for president and they’d need to be able to “prove” he was born inside the USA?
    ***
    If the matter were that important, then why would not Øbama Øsama’s baby-momma make sure she were in the USA and not Kenya in time for the birth?
    ***
    This is more and more sounding like right wingers behaving like angry cranks.
    ***
    With some people, no amount of proof will ever be satisfactory, because if people are determined to attack someone, they can find a way to debunk anything produced..
    ***
    I am confident that the long-form Øbama produced will be accepted as satisfactory proof of eligibility by any responsible state elections official.
    ***
    You birthers would do better to work on Øbama’s college application records. There is good reason to suppose he falsely claimed foreign birth in order to gain scholarship and and admission into fine schools he’d not otherwise have been allowed to enter.

  • Altosackbuteer

    Please kindly see my response to Joseph Moore USN Ret.
    ***
    By the way, I quite AGREE that Øbama Øsama will lose.

  • David

    Not only that, but some of the wall undoubtedly crumbled when the massive HELO’s tail landed on it, making that part of the wall less than 15ft tall.

  • Beaufortdixiegirl

    Is that a 1986 bag phone or a PRC -77! Holy dinasour that dude has to know the real story look at him he has a beard and I saw him at he VFW last week! F BIN laden, F the haters and a HOO YAA to who ever put two in his chest and one in his face! I loved the whisper his name sneaky peak part fact or fiction that’s reason AMERICA is the best! We whisper your name and you get shot in the face!

  • reddarin

    Hmmm.

    If that was some scruffy bearded professor talking poop about the US would you be equally sarcastic?

  • DesertEagle44

    “No one should be writing books about this operation…”

    That goes too far. John Weisman’s novel KBL: Kill Bin Laden is great. Weisman specializes in military special operations novels and consults with former and current military/intelligence personnel for research.

    You weren’t talking about novels? Fair enough. William McRaven’s Spec Ops: Case Studies in Special Operations Warfare: Theory and Practice is a great and highly respected book used in military academies. It covers special operations from WWII to Vietnam to Entebbe. It would certainly make sense for McRaven to release a revised edition with a chapter on the Bin Laden op.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/Z54GGHUDF2W74BQIXF4PLHGODM I'm not Barry

    OK, let us hear your take on Romney’s taxes. That should prove interesting.

  • Altosackbuteer

    What do you want to know about Romney’s taxes?
    ***
    Here’s my take: Romney has been running for President for his entire life, ever since he saw his father’s attempt get shot down in the 1960′s.
    ***
    Romney is no dummy. He, of ALL people, knows that ANYONE who would be President MUST be purer than Ivory Snow.
    ***
    Furthermore, Romney has professionals do his taxes.
    ***
    It is INCONCEIVABLE that there are ANY errors in his taxes.
    ***
    Whatever Romney paid or didn’t pay, he was within the law. I’d stake my LIFE on that.
    ***
    The Democrats KNOW this. They are NOT looking for law-breaking. They are looking for things which might be embarrassing — like the time when the Clintons deducted used underwear as charitable deductions.
    ***
    Here’s my take on Romney’s taxes: He should issue Øbama a challenge — Romney will release his taxes the day Øbama releases his college applilcation forms, to see whether Øbama falsely claimed foreign birth, in order to gainscholarships and entry into higher institutions which he’d otherwise not have been able to do.

  • http://poorwilber.blogspot.com Poor Wilber

    The angle of the dangle, whatever…and so what.

    I’m sick of all these damn books exposing tactics and procedures of the US military, and how these operations go down. All of these books expose individuals involved in future operations to additional risks. Can any of these authors just do their mission instead of vying for the best sellers list? That goes for the politicians that order these operations, can they all somehow manage to simply shut the hell up?

    Whether the information is unclassified or not, its inarguable that this information collectively gives adversaries an advantage…. to know what to expect…. especially when collected from several sources.

  • CaptainAhab

    Wrong.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_RRD6NP54OWDC3X6ZCVEUARQOYQ Kent

    What if the tail was in contact with the wall back by the tail wheel? This would alter the geometry consistent with Bissonette’s story. Unless Chuck Pfarrer was there himself, he is no authority. No other of the Seals who where actually there have stepped forward to refute Bissonette. Answer this question: What are Chuck Pfarrer’s political proclivities?

  • serpico77

    Has this dude even read the book? He never said he shot osamas son. He may have shot the courier in the guest house. And he even says he didn’t kill bin laden. The man running point shot twice one hitting him in the head. The author was second in line behind point. Entered the room second to find osama twitching on the ground with his brains hanging out and then he and the third seal unloaded into his chest til he stopped. Get your facts straight

  • tomsailor

    Pfarrer LIES about what Bissonnette wrote to make his case: Bissonnette writes “the tail boom got caught up on the twelve-foot privacy wall”. Moreover, that “twelve foot” section includes a two-foot roll of (collapsible) concertina wire as shown on CBS and the scale model used above: the concrete wall there is TEN FEET HIGH – and the tail hit just before the wheel strut. Pfarrer’s entire “Geronimo” account is fabricated for $$$ and he’s now totally discredited – but still considers you all fool enough to buy his “trigonometry” refutation.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    You said “These “experts” who debunk the long-form which Øbama produced — they
    didn’t test the actual document which Øbama produced. They made their
    determinations from analysis of .jpg’s of the document.”

    You’re absolutely wrong about that. I’m a graphic artist who works extensively in Photoshop and Illustrator, and the first thing I did when Obama posted his documents was download the pdf and open it in illustrator and photoshop to see what was there. I discovered the layers to my shock and then went online and found that many others had beaten me to it. I still have the original pdf that I downloaded from the white house website, and it is most definately a .pdf and not a .jpg. You can’t find layers in a jpeg anyway–they only ever contain one layer.

  • Altosackbuteer

    Dear Miss “Expert”(not): Before you do us all the great favor of sharing your “expertise” with us all, do yourself a favor first.
    ***
    LEARN HOW TO READ.
    ***
    You did EXACTLY what I SAID you and the other wannabe debunkers did — you examined, NOT the original document which Øbama produced; you all examined A .JPG IMAGE of it. Or a PDF; there’s no difference, as far as I’m concerned. You did NOT see THE ACTUAL ORIGINAL.
    ***
    According to Øbama, he sent his lawyer to Hawaii to get a certified ORIGINAl from the Hawaii Division of Vital Records. It is THIS document which you did NOT analyze.
    ***
    At one point, early in this whole process, it was fair to place a primary burden of proof on Øbama. Øbama actually ackowledged this burden by producing what he produced.
    ***
    Given that ANY state Secretary of State WOULD accept this as facially-valid, prima facie evidence of Øbama’s native birth, the burden of proving this case is now on YOU.
    ***
    And you AIN’T gonna get their with scary anlyses of computer-generated images of the original.
    ***
    You ALL would do better if you would pursue the matter of Øbama’s college applications paper. Given that an AUTHENTIC Curriculum Vitae from Øbama’s one-time literary agent has surfaced, which claims Øbama’s foreign birth — information which Øbama MUST have furnished to the agent — Øbama now has a primary burden to show us why it’s NOT true that he falsely claimed foreign birth in order to gain college admission and scholarship adantage.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    The pdf which Obama put on the whitehouse website is the one he claims to have obtained directly from the vital statistics office in Hawaii. The white house didn’t make the pdf, someone in Hawaii did. And yes, I agree, as does everyone else, that it is not the original document. But neither are any of the documents Obama has produced. The original document (if there is one) is being withheld from any official examination in Hawaii, and Obama did not produce it. Obama’s certified ORIGINAL as you claim it to be, is also only a copy of that document, and not the original. That’s the problem and the entire issue. NO ONE in any capacity who has any independent credibility has been allowed to examine the original. All we have is vague statements by a few people who are Obama syncophants. The original needs to be examined in a court of law and compared with all of the birth certificates within a reasonable time period before and after to see that it is authentic and that no discrepencies exist between it and those surrounding it. And the fact that you think that there is no difference between a jpeg and a pdf just shows how completely ignorant you are.

  • Altosackbuteer

    I know perfectly well the difference between PDF and .jpg.
    ***
    BOTH are computer similacra of original documents.
    ***
    And I DON’T care if Hawaii issued what in fact is a PDF of the original document they have on file.
    ***
    The FACT is, HAWAII issued it. That makes it, for official and legal purposes, AN ORIGINAL document, even if it, in fact, is a PDF of whatever Hawaii has on file.
    ***
    THE STATE OF HAWAII ISSUED IT.
    ***
    Unless you are accusing state officials of blatant dishonesty, THAT ENDS THE DISCUSSION.
    ***
    Are you in fact accusing state officials of dishonesty? If you are, produce your arguments. For now, the burden is no longer on Øbama to prove anything; the burden is NOW ON YOU to argue persuasively why this document is phony.
    ***
    And to do that, you will HAVE to examine the ACTUAL document which Hawaii produced, regardless of HOW Hawaii prepared it.
    ***
    You say, the document Hawaii produced is itself a PDF. Very well; THAT means, you are making judgments on what is a .jpg of what is a PDF.
    ***
    It’s BOGUS.
    ***
    And it’s SILLY, at this point. Given what Øbama produced, ANY state Secretary of State WILL certify him as constitutionally eligible to be President.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    “Unless you are accusing state officials of blatant dishonesty, THAT ENDS THE DISCUSSION.”

    That’s exactly what I and many others are arguing, in case you hadn’t noticed. And we don’t want to examine the ACTUAL document which Hawaii produced, we want a court of law to examine the ACTUAL document from which all these other documents were allegedly produced.

    And no, I’m not making judgements on what is a .jpg of a pdf, I’m making judgements on a pdf. Idiotic statements like that undermine your argument and make you look ridiculous.

  • Altosackbuteer

    Cool. So now, GO AHEAD AND PROVE IT — IF YOU CAN.
    ***
    And I DON’T think you can. And furthermore, YOU now have the burden of doing so.
    ***
    What part of my statement was “idiotic”? YOU people ARE looking at computer-generated similacra of original documents, NOT originals, which you NEED to do to prove your case.
    ***
    But, by all means DO TRY.

  • reddarin

    Here is a good question.

    Obamao is the sitting President. Why wasn’t the original document put into a protective brief case and safely delivered to the Oval Office for first hand review by 3rd party document experts?

    Obama released the imaged version to put the birther argument down supposedly.

    But just like the entire time this has been any sort of issue, Obama has, at every turn, taken steps to keep the birther argument going.

    He wants it to be an issue. Without regard to his true place of birth, he wants to be able to point a political finger at ‘right-wing extremist’ to paint all opposition to him with a broad brush of ‘see how kooky they are’.

    The worst president in our history and that is saying something since Carter was in the chair only 30ish years ago.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    “Go ahead now and prove it” is exactly what the people arguing this would like to do, but that requires being able to see the original document, and the Obama and the Hawaii politicians are doing everything they can to prevent any examination of it whatsoever. Why? Who knows. If someone were questioning my birth certificate I certainly would have no problem with letting a legal forensics team examine it for authenticity.

    This is the part of your statement that is idiotic: “You say, the document Hawaii produced is itself a PDF. Very well; THAT
    means, you are making judgments on what is a .jpg of what is a PDF.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    It wouldn’t need to be taken to the Oval Office, or even removed from the vaults. An independent legal team could be brought into the room in Hawaii where it is stored, properly supervised with security. Video and audio recordings should be made of the entire event, along with photographs, to document everything that is found and to verify that all is done on the up and up. Samples of the paper and ink should be taken to ensure that modern processes were not used to create a forgery, and photos of a range of birth certificates before and after taken to rule out the possibility that any of those might have been used as source documents for a forgery. With all of those properly done and certified, THEN study the findings and present them in court for argument and judgement. That is what should be done, and should have been done from the start. But you are right, reddarin, he wants it to be an issue.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    You said “There is also a Honolulu newspaper announcement of the birth. Are you seriously trying to tell me that his parents placed the announcement there, knowing that someday he’d run for president and they’d need to be able to “prove” he was born inside the USA?”

    I have five children. All of their births were announced in the newspapers, and not one of those announcements were placed by me or their father, or any other relative. They were generated from lists sent from the vital statistics office to the newspapers when their birth records were processed, as was usual and customary. Obama’s parents most likely did not place his announcements. All someone (probably his grandmother) had to do was apply for a birth certificate and vital statistics would add the baby’s info to the list and send the list to both newspapers, so no grand motive or “presidential” foresight was needed on their part, other than the common and understandable motive of making sure the kid would be counted as a US citizen. The problem is that it is a documented fact that during that period Hawaii gave out birth certificates both for children born there and children not born there, and required nothing but the say so of whoever applied, so the newspaper announcements prove nothing but that a birth certificate was applied for at that time. They do not prove that Obama was actually born there or provide any evidence that would prove it.

    I personally doubt that Obama was born outside of the US, but there are certainly enough red flags raised by every single one of his documents that a credible legal investigation can and should be made. The fact that it hasn’t been is criminal.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    And though I’ve been arguing with you on other points, let me just say that I completely agree with just about every thing you wrote in the post above.

  • reddarin

    Alto you mistake me and manage to be shittily disrespectful all at once although, really, the two are often intertwined.

    I do think that Obama has intentionally allowed the issue to fester and I do believe he did it for a cynical political agenda. He proves that all the time by allowing MSM proxies and political proxies decry any criticism as racism, et. al.

    That doesn’t make me into a raving lunatic. Just because *you’re* satisfied doesn’t magically transform everyone on the other side of *your* line in the sand to crazy.

    Got it?

    As for Obama’s political astuteness on keeping this issue on the burner, I am not sure how you arrive at your claim that he could have done a ‘better job’ at it. The whole point is to keep egging it on without appearing to egg it on. Hell, the whole liberal philosophy is to pay lip service to opponent agendas while working hard to undercut whatever the issue might be.

    Do you see me racing around town in a panel van with ‘Obama is a Kenyan’ plastered all over the sides and loud speakers blaring a ringing denunciation of the man for being foreign born? No.

    Your standard is ‘any mention of the BC issue’?

    Anyway. No worries. We disagree about it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    We ARE going after that–with the same obstacles thrown out by the president who has worked just as hard keeping that covered up as everything else.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    An OFFICIAL document is only as good as the OFFICIALS who created it. It doesn’t matter how Hawaii releases its official documents, the copies have not been demonstrated to be an authentic original yet. And despite your tantrums, the matter is not over–none of the questions raised have been answered. It will be over when the proper investigation is done, if it ever is.

  • Altosackbuteer

    First of all, consider yourself Flagged for obscenity. It is disrespectful to me and the other readers to use the language you used above.
    ***
    Øbama has NOT allowed the matter to fester. He himself said, if he wanted to do that, he’d have refused to release the long-form birth certificate until there were a few weeks left to go in this year’s campaign.
    ***
    Øbama is NOT “egging it on.” He has no need to. You irrational cranks are doing a marvelous job of that for him. With cranks like you around, Øbama doesn’t have to lift a finger.
    ***
    At THIS point, ANY mention of the BC issues HELPS ØBAMA.

  • Altosackbuteer

    I assume Romney’s taxes for the past 30 years are all in good order, for the simple reason he’s been running for President for that entire time, and he knows VERY well that taxes get examined under a microscope when running for President.
    ***
    I mention that because Romney could give you guys a BIG push, if he would issue the simple public challenge which Trump and others have publicly urged upon him — Romney will release his taxes when Øbama releases his college applications papers.

  • Altosackbuteer

    Hawaii’s OFFICIAL release of Øbama Øsama’s long-form constitutes its own demonstration of authenticity and originality.
    ***
    For that not to be true, you must suppose that public officials have engaged in corrupt behavior.
    ***
    Very well — now go ahead and prove that.

  • reddarin

    Flag away my friend. You need to be disrespected and you damn sure don’t feel any compunction about being disrespectful to other people.
    Obama HAS allowed the matter to fester. WE DISAGREE ABOUT THAT ALTO.

    Not just fester but the man has egged it on when opportunity presents itself.

    As I said before, *you* aren’t the captain of the ship and *you* don’t get to be the arbiter of what is rational and irrational on an issue like this. What the hell is so hard to understand about that? Why do you think your personal standards set the bar for everyone? Is that somehow rational

    Do you feel like it is justified when anyone calls you an irrational crank over anything you disagree about?

    As for your claim that ANY mention of it helps Obama, good freaking God.

    I’m irrational but YOU are the one cowering in the corner afraid that somehow the election apparently hinges on someone whispering his questionable conduct about it in the Alps in a dark room at 10,000 feet at midnight.

  • Altosackbuteer

    Obscenity is NOT “my” standard. It is the SITE’S standard. The Site Moderator can and DOES remove postings that are obscene, and sometimes the posters themselves, regardless of the merit of comments they may make.
    ***
    When Human Events brought back Disqus, they posted a disclaimer above each Comments section, stating that obscenity and certain other behavior were not allowed.
    ***
    People who engage in it are simply disrespctful.
    ***
    I CAN and HAVE reported egregious offenders of the Site’s policies to the Site Moderator personally. Usually, though not always, he agrees with me and Removes the offending postings and sometimes their authors.
    ***
    Again, YOU BIG DOPE, it is NOT my “personal standards” which prevail here — it is the SITE’S standards which you offend against.
    ***
    Take this to the bank: Continued mentioning of the BC issue DOES help Øbama, because YOU guys doing it DO look like miserable, ignorant, prejudiced CRANKS, thereby making Øbama look GOOD.
    ***
    And finally, YOU are NOT my friend.

  • reddarin

    Blah blah blah.

    Alto you are as thick headed as A&W Rootbeer.

    Not your standards? Really? Then why did you refer to it as disrespectful to you and readers? Huh? Because you moron it is your standard. I don’t recall the site blurb making any moral or ethical statements regarding the refreshed standards when they brought back disqus.

    I’ve seen your safety patrol style antics Alto. I’m unimpressed. I doubt anyone is impressed with your passive aggressive bull.

    You make the most obnoxious posts and call people all sorts of insulting names and if anyone responds with any sort of a foul word you immediately let everyone know you are flagging it.

    So. Get bent. And realize the the expression ‘my friend’ is colloquial only not some exclamation of endearment. How stupid.

  • reddarin

    Alto. You are too myopic and too consumed with animosity to realize that *YOU* are making this into a big conversation with your back and forth about it.

    By your own truly pathetic claim that ANY mention of it HELPS OBAMAO, *YOU* are helping OBAMAO.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    My friend.

  • Altosackbuteer

    IDIOT, I referred to YOUR OBSCENITY as disrespectful to me and many of the other readers because IT WAS.
    ***
    There is a time and place for barnyard language. Feel free to use it all you want when you go and visit your local, smoke-filled bar late at night.
    ***
    If you visit your grandmother, that is NOT an appropriate time. Neither is it appropriate when you go to church.
    ***
    This site, as MANY sites do, has a basic Standard of Conduct which bans activities such as spam, threats, libel, and obscenity.
    ***
    If I HAVE to EXPLAIN basic DECENCY to you, it is PROBABLY a waste of my time — because you’re too damned morally dense and STUPID to Get It.
    ***
    It is NOT “MY” standard, you FOOL — it is the SITE’S standard. I merely point it out to you. The Site recently posted that disclaimer at the top of every Comments section, and I wish it would do so again, so I wouldn’t have to waste my time AND yours explaining this BASIC FACT to you.
    ***
    I only unload on people who RICHLY DESERVE IT — like YOU, YOU MORON.
    ***
    And, I KNOW very well you weren’t being “endearing when you called me “friend.” I merely wanted to run that in your dirty face — and I SUCCEEDED.

  • reddarin

    More of the same blather Alto.

    Let me reiterate. Get bent.

    This isn’t a church and I’m not speaking to my grandmother or yours.

    If your grandmother isn’t aware that rough language is used on the Internet then warn her before she goes on line.

    And, you ethically challenged imbecilic stooge, the use of what *you* consider obscene language doesn’t define what is offensive. Somehow, in your pathetic little world, saying ‘hell’ is highly offensive and disrespectful but calling someone an idiot in all caps is perfectly fine and meets your standards of church and in-front-of-grandma speech. Really? Personal aspersions are just fine with God and granny as long as no one utters the word ‘damn’.

    The rest is just more of your moral equivocation on your personal belief about what is crossing the line.

    We all get it. Your virgin ears cannot bear the mention of anything you consider to be profane. Although there’s no holds barred short of profane like idiot, moron or any other ad hominem invective you can spout.

    As for your throwing anything in my face, the fact that your posts history makes one wonder if you understand colloquial English isn’t a victory you dope.

    Bah. Crawl back under your Energy Independence Now rock.

  • reddarin

    “because you’re too damned morally ”

    !!!!!!!!!!

    WTF!!??? Are you going to personally email the moderator about yourself you friggin hypocrite??????

    HUH??

  • Altosackbuteer

    You are not my friend.
    ***
    Moreover, YOU’RE AN IDIOT.
    ***
    THIS IS AN OLD THREAD. it’s now almost TWO WEEKS old.
    ***
    I did NOT initiate this exchange — YOU did. As far as i was concerned, this thread had expired over a week ago. So, DON’T be complaining to ME about making it a “big conversation” and continuing to go back-&-forth on it, when YOU initiated it again.
    ***
    It takes TWO to make THAT tango, “pal”(not).
    ***
    If you don’t like it now, THEN STOP. ALL I have done is RESPOND to you.
    ***
    (Sigh). I see you are like a small boy who gets his backside repeatedly kicked by a bigger, better boy (namely, me), and every time the bigger boy wins again and tries to walk away, the miserable little annoying boy who richly deserves his thrashing, gets back up and says, “Come back here, I wanna kick YOUR backside again.”
    ***
    You’re also like a small boy in that you think, all you got to do is to wear out the patience of an adversary with infinite filibustering, and “you win” as long as you succeed in getting in the last word, however STUPID it may be.
    ***
    So now, go ahead — BE MY GUEST. GET the last word in, and luxuriate in the thrill of your hollow, stupid, empty “victory.”
    ***
    Go to it now, little fellow.

  • reddarin

    I have noticed that dummies that must get the last word in usually do so by daring the other person to do it – exactly like you did in this pathetic post.

    By your own incredibly stupid and elastic standards, *YOU* continued the conversation when someone else replied to you. Then you continued replying back and forth with that person. Not me. I deleted all of my old HE emails to clean out that folder yesterday or the day before so everything I’ve gotten is from now not 12 days ago. Dummy.

    As for your pathetic claim that all I need to do is stop. Well. Go ahead moron. Stop posting. I ain’t holding a gun to your head to respond to me. You didn’t have to respond to the post I made in the first place smart guy.

    How interesting though. Throw out a bunch of insults, claim the high ground then dare the other person to respond and that will prove they are somehow being small for doing so.

    Get bent.

  • Altosackbuteer

    You’re right. This is NOT your grandmother’s house or a church.
    ***
    It IS a site where CIVIL people meet and do so AFTER agreeing to abide by certainly commonly-understood rules of basic comportment.
    ***
    The word you used is a variant of one of George Carlin’s famous 7 banned words. NO respectable publication uses those words. And broadcasters like Howard Stern have been FINED for allowing their use to go out over public airwaves — which, by the way, THIS SITE is a form of public airwaves.
    ***
    “Rough language” like you USED is NOT part of the parlance used on THIS site.
    ***
    If you don’t like me calling you a MORON (which you ARE), then YOU take it up with the Site Moderator. If HE thinks you have a case, I will be disciplined.
    ***
    This site, while banning certain basic behaviors, IS a site which ADULTS visit. It is a POLITICAL site, NOT a family site like your grandmother’s or a religious site like a church, so therefore, a DEGREE of rough play goes on here, under the aegis of Free Speech.
    ***
    But, it HAS a limit. This Site in fact, as POSTED these limits in the past. And YOU AGREED to their standards as a condition of signing on.
    ***
    You MAY, by the way, use the word “damn.” “Bastard” is OK too, though I’m not sure if it’s alright to call each other that here.
    ***
    IDIOT, it is NOT “MY” personal belief. It is the SITE’S policy.

  • Altosackbuteer

    In the course of my reporting mutants in the past, the Site Moderator, of necessity, has likewise seen my responses to them, which are of a tenor with what you and I have exchanged today.
    ***
    So in fact, I HAVE reported myself in the past — YOU MORON. And as a matter of fact, now that you jog my memory, I used to have famous disputes last spring with Mr. EMT, and at one point, in response to a similar demand of his, I did just that — I FORMALLY REPORTED MY OWN “MISBEHAVIOR.”
    ***
    You got any OTHER “bright”(not) ideas, IDIOT?

  • Altosackbuteer

    I was going to not respond any further, and I HOPE this is REALLY my final exchange, but you said ONE thing above that I cannot resist responding to.
    ***
    It was this: “I have noticed that dummies that must get the last word in usually do so
    by daring the other person to do it – exactly like you did in this
    pathetic post.”
    ***
    My response:
    ***
    Ahh — I see YOU SPOTTED MY TRAP.
    ***
    Because, when I phrase it the way I did, I WIN, EITHER way. Because, if the mutant DOESN’T respond, then it means I shamed him into not getting the last word. And if the mutant — that means YOU — ignores the challenge and gets the last word, then I STILL win, because I predicted it.
    ***
    So please, GO RIGHT AHEAD, li’l fella — DO get the last STUPID word in, and rejoice in your STUPID “victory”(not).
    ***
    HAHAHAHAHA!

  • reddarin

    Oh? I didn’t see your usual pathetic ‘look at me! I am the hall monitor! Obey me!’ flagged for obscenity post for your post on your obscene post that you are decrying like a bleating goat here in this thread for the past several hours.

  • reddarin

    And, yes, I do have a question about your claim.

    How come there was no associated 2 year old style exclamatory “I am reporting you’ post about your own post? You go to great pains to let everyone know when someone crosses the line in your opinion but I notice a dramatic absence of the hair shirt when you need to wear it yourself.

  • reddarin

    Riiiiiiiight. As I described. Insult, high ground, dare. Rinse repeat. Pathetic.

  • Altosackbuteer

    As a matter of FACT, IDIOT, I DID INDEED TELL Mr. EMpTy EXACTLY what I was doing — reporting myself.
    ***
    But, GENERALLY, I do NOT report myself FOR THE SIMPLE REASON I DON’T OFFEND AGAINST SITE POLICY. I DON’T use obscenity. I, unlike you, DON’T make obscene posts. So what is there for me to report?
    ***
    Hah! Ya didn’t thinka THAT one, didja, you FOOL?
    ***
    And, IDIOT, if I am bleating, IT IS ONLY IN RESPONSE TO YOUR OWN BLEATING. In other words, BOTH of us are bleating — IDIOT.

  • reddarin

    So. You didn’t make a post loudly proclaiming your denouncement and report of the infraction? Uh huh.

    Right big guy. Except that I am not the one claiming you are trying to get the last word in. A frequent claim made by …. control freaks that must get the last word in.

    You don’t offend against site policy?

    Refresh my memory. Weren’t you saying that the site policy is to ensure civil and respectful discourse?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Molly-Zin/100002267303943 Molly Zin

    The more I read of this guy’s comments, Reddarin, the more evident it is that there is some kind of mental deficiency there, and to try to reason with someone who takes an argument beyond defensibility is pointless. So I think it’s time for me at least to move on.

  • reddarin

    He’s got his quirks and that is putting it mildly. The thing is, he does make intelligent and insightful posts.

    As long as you agree with him, everything is peachy. But if you dare disagree, Katy bar the door.

    It is a shame really. But people are people and there’s one of him in every big crowd.

    He redefines obnoxious. And the odious poop head eggs people on then reports them. If he does it adroitly enough he gets them banned like he did with EMT. Then he crows about it like a 2 yr old. Real nice. At least he doesn’t live in America thank God.

  • jackflash1

    Are these “Birther” posters on some kind of weird “CIA” concocted drug that distorts reality? Obama’s MOTHER ( “baby-momma” for all you wannabe gang-banger or biker types, if I ever said that at my firm I’d be unemployed ) is an American citizen, born in America from American citizen parents, both, ,and you only need one…consequently Mr Obama, regardless of “where” he was born, either in Hawaii (newspaper notice) or brought right back (again,newspaper notice) by his mother from Kenya….either way ,because of his mother’s full citizenship, Mr Obama is a full American citizen….period. There really is nothing to discuss. There are no special laws that apply to black people or those with funny names. An American citizen as either parent is all it takes, that’s the law.Any ignoramus that doesn’t believe that need only go to the State Department and ask. He does not hold dual citizenship…Kenya does not offer that as do some European nations like Ireland or Italy….i.e. I have one parent, mu father, who was not yet an American citizen back in 1948 and that automatically conferred dual citizenship to me, yet I am eligible to be “President” if the occasion warranted. By the way,Mr McCain was also born of American parents in a foreign land…same rule apply to him.

  • jackflash1

    He may very well have claimed Kenyan birth to gain scholarships and grants but it is highly unlikely he claimed Kenyan citizenship because they never check those things and he most likely knew how far he could push it. Furthermore, if that is in fact the case, without a doubt that debt will have been paid in cash from the advance of any books that he published that made money years ago….and he did make money writing and if he did do what you claim he’s made good of it by now. Very different from stashing money overseas to avoid paying US taxes and lying about it. So ,by “working the system” and excelling in ever way,every test score,every SAT, Mr Obama gained a shot at something, won the faith of his educators, was then pushed along and given every opportunity and was very successful all because he “got a shot” ….and that experience you somehow discredit, although someone like a Romney, born sliding into home plate with the ball already over the stands, you think somehow he deserves the free education he got. Sounds like you’re just pissed that you didn’t think of it first, I know I am.

  • jackflash1

    It doesn’t matter if Mr Obama was born on the moon…his mother IS an American Citizen by birth as well as her parents and further back than that….one parent is all you need,either mother of father. Even if he was born in Kenya he was brought back very quickly and the local paper made an announcement which was published.In my own case it was only my mother as well…and yet I am a full American citizen, have been vetted for security work (years ago) and have had top security clearances to prove it. One parent is all you need. Actually…truth is, one GRANDPARENT will do the trick if one has the documents of proof or immigration does some checking for you. I know of a case where a woman came to America, from Poland, in 1930 to work and went back right before the war. She became a naturalized American citizen….she survived the war,had children and her grandson became a Merchant Marine. “Lester” jumped ship in Delaware and shacked up with some local floozy until he decided he wanted to stay here. He had no idea that his grandmother was a citizen, he just never was told and she was long dead and when he went to the Immigration department they checked him out, found the record of his grandmother and he automatically was entered as a citizen.His father had to find some papers in Poland to confirm the lineage but with that he was an American.

  • jackflash1

    You need the original document ,not some photographed copy. When you get the original, let us know what you find. I sincerely doubt that the State of Hawaii issues “fake” birth certificates.

  • jackflash1

    Folks..his MOTHER is an American citizen. That confers American citizenship on him automatically. One parent is all that’s needed….maybe now the law is different but I doubt it….in 1962 it took ONE parent. Mr Obama is an American citizen by birth ,the same as John McCain, who also was born outside the national borders. ONE American CITIZEN PARENT…I fail to see what any of you are arguing about. And he absolutely would not,did not go to Java or Kenya or anywhere else an renounce his American citizenship. How stupid would that be?

  • jackflash1

    His mother is a full American Citizen…hence Mr Obama is as well. Regardless of his father or anything else. He tried to explain this, Mr McCain tried to explain it he, has a similar situation, yet you people just keep pounding away at the idiocy of a paper birth certificate being a PDF or a JPG or whatever. It just isn’t relevant to this “case”…if he was born in Germany to an American parent he is an American citizen eligible for the Presidency unless he renounces his citizenship, which is a public record and would make him not be able to get a passport,which we all know he has. Don’t you think that the NSA or the FBI, or the Passport Dept, would have got a clue about your “amazing” revelations before you even had a chance to think of them? Give it a break,you all sound like morons.

  • reddarin

    Buddy. I checked your post history and I can see you are new to posting at HE.

    I’m gonna give you some free advice.

    Think about what you are saying and who you are saying it to. Especially if you plan on being an asshat while taking a strong position on any particular issue.

    Reread the post you are responding to. Who is the moron? Get it? *I* pointed out that this hack in the Oval Office has kept the damned issue alive and done it intentionally.

    See this line? “Without regard to his true place of birth,”

    Before you leap on on your high hobby horse and call other people morons maybe you ought to be a little more introspective?

    Then maybe take a few minutes to read the back and forth between me and Alto because it applies to you too.

  • jackflash1

    I got here because I am looking into reading that new Seal book and wondering why it was even written since there is some talk about it being fake…sorry, I couldn’t help but read the comments hoping to find more info and was amazed to see the comments denigrate into just more “birther” idiocy. Sorry “buddy”, that’s what it is. Like arguing that the moon is made of green cheese…or maybe it’s blue cheese,eh? Didn’t mean to get under anyone’s thin skin and I was using “morons” in a broad general sense and not personally….By the way, are any of you folks even American or aware of what American laws say or how they apply to everyone and not just who one wants them to apply to? They aren’t open to your definition or really anyone’s aside from the Supreme Court…you shouldn’t play “fantasy politics” and throw out all sorts of convoluted theories….like I said, read the law. Someone with less intelligence reading this stuff might actually start to believe it to be true and get himself into trouble in public.And again..it doesn’t matter where “this hack” was born as long as one of his parents is an American citizen. Really,it doesn’t. ….”As of 2011, United States Federal law (8 U.S.C. § 1401) defines who is a United States citizen from birth. According to that law, the following acquire citizenship at birth…If one parent is a U.S. citizen and the other parent is not, the child is a citizen… if the U.S. citizen parent has been “physically present” in the U.S. before the child’s birth for a total period of at least five years, and at least two of those five years were after the U.S. citizen parent’s fourteenth birthday.” …Furthermore, to tweek it even more…. “Title 8 U.S.C. § 1409
    paragraph (c) provides that children born abroad after December 24,
    1952 to unmarried American MOTHERS are U.S. citizens, as long as the
    mother has lived in the U.S. for a continuous period of at least one
    year at any time prior to the birth”….So that’s what the LAW says…It does define that there is a difference in the law as it applies to unwed FATHERS and unwed MOTHERS…This distinction between unwed American fathers and American mothers was
    constructed and reaffirmed by Congress out of concern that a flood of
    illegitimate Korean and Vietnamese children would later claim American
    citizenship as a result of their parentage by American servicemen
    overseas fighting wars in their countries. And as we know, Obama’s American parent is his MOTHER. Now, you can parse and redefine this all you want in private or wherever and have as many AHA!! moments as you want, but you will never get a hearing in front of a judge anywhere to refute it. It’s the law. It’s not refutable, not about to be changed “retroactively” for you or Donald Trump or anyone else and doesn’t warrant a further look into it to see if it meets up with your own personal criteria on constitutionality. Sorry to be a party pooper.

  • reddarin

    For someone who likes to throw around the term ‘moron’ and adopt a generally condescending attitude you are amazingly stupid.

  • reddarin

    Listen. I have to retype this because my other reply got lost in the bit bucket.

    The post you were replying to had NOTHING to do with the wannabe Dictator In Chief’s birthright.

    It was about his intentional egging on of the issue for cynical political reasons.

    Got it?

    As for the rest of your blather. Get bent. Go find someone who wants to argue about birther issues. Take your pathetic lame arguments with you.

    Moron.

  • Guest

    I didn’t bring it up….I didn’t start the thread. I know what the post was about, the post was fine, I got it….I was responding to the birther idiocy that took the post over in the comments. Must be a dozen birther entries from you and that other person going on like you know what you’re talking about…..”Protective briefcases”? “Original Document”? Whatever does any of that even mean? How does any of it relate to Bin Laden getting killed? Seems that you are the one obsessed with where Obama was born….and it just doesn’t matter where he was born. That’s the funny part.OK,funny how our laws work…..so now I’ll go get bent, I’ve got some docket work to do,ciao.

  • jackflash1

    The post was hijacked by “birthers”, not by me….sorry if responding to it offends you. I just saw a lot of made up “birther” nonsense and was sort of taken aback… I’ve noticed how thin the skin is of “birther” types, they seem to get offended the second any thing that has a whiff of truth rears it’s ugly head. Go study American law…it’s a beautiful thing and might open your eyes. Dictator-in-Chief? My, you folks are really delusional. If he really was a “Dictator” this conversation wouldn’t be happening and you most likely would have already been arrested , cause, you know, that’s what dictators do.

  • reddarin

    You also didn’t read the post you were responding to. Good God. I’ve explained it to you 3 times now? And still you are here fighting battles that aren’t even being fought by anyone but you.

    You keep arguing the same damn point. I keep repeating so what that has ZERO to do with what I said.

    Yet, according to you, everyone else is a moron.

  • reddarin

    What offends me, you idiot, is you racing around calling other people morons when you are being a moron having an argument with me about something I didn’t say.

    Jesus freaking Christ.

    Either you are so stupid you can’t type on a keyboard and are using speech to text software or you are embarrassed to own up to your stupidity and pretending to be oblivious to the obviousness of what I’ve told you since the very first post you made to me.

    As for your pathetic ‘thin skinned’ pejorative, holy smoke. You call a bunch or random people morons and then act like it is *their* fault if they don’t like it?

    Partner. You aren’t as smart as you think you are.

    Like far too many liberals, you think through the lens of your ideology.

    Arrested?

    You mean like that fella for ‘possible parole violations’?????? Right after he was blamed by Obama for the Ambassador being murdered????

    Wake up you zombie!

  • http://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.spiewaksr Jeffrey Spiewak Sr

    It is a fake. First of all in 1961 he would’ve been born Negro, NOT African American, as that term DIDN’T exsist. And secondadly his father could not have been born in Kenya as it wasn’t called Kenya until long after his father was born.

  • Owen Hyne

    Look, my name is actually Owen, so I believe I have some credibility on this issue. The trig “proof” is complete bs. As other have stated, we have no idea where the helicopter’s tail rested the wall, could have been at the very end for all we know. According to the assumedly to-scale diagram, this would probably explain the rotors not hitting the ground, or not hitting the ground significantly enough to break up. Also, we have no idea what the grading of the ground on the interior of the compound looked like. If the ground wasn’t level, then it creates even more opportunity for the story to be true. Bottom line, the dude doesn;t really have any actual grounds to dispute the account. He’s just some overweight former special-ops guy trying to still act tough by playing dress-up (see photos) and writing books.

  • chris

    The ‘object’ that landed on the wall was also not a Blackhawk, thus the trig argument cannot be verified without highly classified dimensions of this new stealth helo. The former seal is trying to make money slanting the memories of someone who was actually present during the raid. I also do not believe that a Pakistani report should be held up as gospel. We must remember that the Pakistanis were embarrassed by this raid and therefore cannot be relied upon for accurate, non-bias information. If I were a Pakistani official I would want to discredit recollections by American military personel in order to create a lack of trust between the American people, their heros, and their leadership.

  • http://www.facebook.com/eyeamtym Tym Othy

    maybe as the helicopter lowers the tail grabs the wall and it breaks as the helicopter gets lower so as to not tilt forward as drastically? maybe because the actual helicopter is somewhat secretive the rotors are not as long as assumed?

  • vicentewakk

    Dual laser rifles are regular laser rifles that fire two laser rounds per shot. http://clarksvilledefenselawyer.com

  • PaC SGM (R)

    Every one is a teammate until the books start getting written, then it seems to be every man for himself.
    Only guy I would believe on this issue is Brandon Webb because of his contacts on the ST’s which according to him the shooter was around 5’5″

  • PaC SGM (R)

    Pfarrer is fighting to sell his own books.