Guns & Patriots

Shotguns: The Best Felon Killing Home Defense Tool Ever Made

Countless hours have been spent arguing what makes the “best” home defense gun.  The reality is there is not a single gun that meets the requirements of every person and household.

Frequently, when talking about home defense guns, the shotgun is brought up first.  The shotgun can make a very good home defense weapon, but it does have limitations that should be carefully considered.

Power

Shotguns offer devastating stopping power.  From a 12 gauge shell, a homeowner can put nine 00-buck (.33 caliber) pellets into an assailant with each pull of the trigger.  While this is not guaranteed to stop a determined attacker, it is certainly an attention getter.

By comparison, a 9mm pistol fires a single .355 caliber bullet at typically slower velocities than the shotgun.  You would have to pull the trigger nine times on a pistol to put the same kind of stopping power into an assailant as a single shotgun shell.

But there are a number of drawbacks associated with the shotgun including recoil, size and unrealistic expectations regarding performance.

Ouch Factor

Shotgun recoil is stout.  A smaller statured shooter is less likely to want to shoot a 12 gauge pump.  The very thing that makes the shotgun so effective — power — is the same thing that makes people shy away from using it.

Shotgun recoil can be tamed in a variety of ways.  For example, consider using a 20 gauge instead of 12 gauge shotgun.  A 20 gauge shotgun loaded with #3 buck (20 .25 caliber pellets) is nearly as effective on human targets in across-the-room distances as a 12 gauge loaded with 00-buck, but has significantly less recoil.

Also, the use of a semi-auto shotgun can reduce felt recoil since the operating system uses some of that energy to eject and chamber shells.  Moving from a 12 gauge pump to a semi automatic 20 can really change a reluctant shooter into a willing one.

If you decide to go with the 12 gauge shotgun, consider using the reduced recoil loads offered by most manufacturers.  These loads have been used to great effect by law enforcement agencies, with no noticeable loss in terminal performance.  In other words, less recoil but same stopping power.

A Knoxx recoil reduction stock from BLACKHAWK! significantly reduces recoil.  As a former cop, I carried a shotgun in a patrol car for more than 10 years, and I state without any hesitation that the Knoxx stock is the best accessory ever designed for a combat shotgun.

Size Matters

Size matters in two important aspects:  length of barrel and length of pull.

The length of the shotgun barrel typically ranges from 18” to 28”.  Anything shorter is illegal without the proper tax stamp from Big Brother.

A long shotgun barrel, such as would be used for wing shooting, is difficult to tactically maneuver through a house.  I would never suggest leaving the relative safety of an entrenched position to go looking for home intruders, but reality is you may have to move from your room to go protect your children or other family member.

An 18” – 20” barrel is optimal.  If you have a shotgun with a longer barrel, you can easily purchase a second barrel that installs in about five minutes.  When you get ready to go hunting, simply swap the barrel back.  Shotguns are very easy with which to work.

Second Childhood

Length of pull refers to how a long gun fits you.  If the size of the shotgun is wrong, you are going to be less accurate and it will be more difficult for you to work the slide and other controls on the gun.

While aftermarket stocks like the Knoxx allow for an adjustable length of pull, another option is to purchase a youth-sized shotgun.  These shotguns have a shorter stock for children learning to shoot.  The great thing is, these same guns work very well for many women and smaller statured men.

A side benefit for the youth guns is they often times are slightly less expensive than their larger cousins. 

Point and Shoot – No Aiming Required

I cringe every time I hear a gun store commando telling a novice shooter “With the scattergun, all ya gots to do is just point it in the general direction and pull the trigger.  You ain’t gotta aim.”

Bovine manure.  Shotguns come with a sighting system for a reason.  At typical house distances (down the hall, across the room), the shot pattern is going to be very tight.  If you do not aim, you will miss.

If you don’t believe me, carry your shotgun out to the range and shoot man-sized targets at five yards.  The hole it makes will be impressive.  But, you will notice that there is very little spread of the pellets.  In other words, if you don’t aim, that tight group of pellets is likely go go somewhere other than the intruder.

The Magic of Racking a Shotgun

Another piece of gun store hero advice goes something along the lines of “The sound of a 12 gauge being racked will cause the assailant to wet himself and run, you’ll never have to shoot.”

Much like the previous statement, this piece of ‘wisdom’ is better used for fertilizing vegetables than for self defense.

I’ve spent a significant portion of my adult life dealing with the criminal element.  Today’s criminal is a predator who is not scared of a homeowner merely making noise with a shotgun.

If someone comes into your home to do you harm, racking the shotgun will not scare them away.  Through rage, socialization or drugs human predators are frequently incapable of feeling fear or compassion.  Making noise will not likely stop an attacker.  Lead will.

This is My Boomstick

The shotgun offers a lot of advantages for a home defense gun.  They offer exceptional stopping power, are relatively inexpensive and they are pretty simple to operate.

However, the shotgun is not a perfect tool.  Your circumstances and needs may dictate an alternative weapon to the shotgun.  But finding the proper shotgun for your needs and a little planning, the ‘old smoothbore’ can be an extremely effective tool for protecting you and your family.

Effective Tools for Felon Repellant

Remington 870, model 24591 – This is a 12 gauge shotgun built on the famous 870 action, but with a few nice upgrades.  From the factory, it comes with the Knoxx recoil reducing stock, a Wilson Combat ghost ring rear sight and a XS front sight post.  MSRP $986.

Mossberg 930 Home Security, model 85320 – This 12 gauge is a reasonably priced, reliable semi-auto shotgun.  No frills, just business. With a 4+1 capacity, front bead sight and Mossberg ambidextrous safety, this shotgun is easy to run and easy on the wallet.  MSRP $612.

Remington 11-87 Sportsman Youth – As a compact, easy shooting shotgun, it is tough to beat the Remington 11-87 Youth.  A semi-auto chambered in 20 gauge, this shotgun has a 21” barrel and a adjustable pull of length, meaning you can fit the firearm perfectly for the shooter.  MSRP $804.

Federal Power-Shok 20 Gauge, #3 Buck – Full power, yet easier shooting that 12 gauge, these shells load 20 #3 buck pellets and launches them at 1200 fps.  The tight patterns mean a devastating impact on any unwanted house guests.  Expect to pay around $4.50 for a box of five.

Hornady Critical Defense 12 Gauge 00 Buck – Designed specifically for personal defense, these reduced recoil loads from Hornady feature eight 00 buck pellets moving at 1600 fps.  Street price is about $9.50 for a box of 10.

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  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6RCY4ZFWJ5KJFGO45SP45HF22U old

    Very good-the shot gun is considered by many as the prime home/stationary defensive tool. In my case the home defense tool of choice is an 18.5 inch coach (double barrel) gun. I have had it over 40 years and am rather familiar with it. But then I have given all my children Smith & Wesson pumps-a weapon in which I have great confidence.

    But the “Ouch Factor” has yet to enter into my equation. From my youngest days I have been taught and so believe that if I am to have loaded weapons I would shoot at least some once a month. I hold it tight, don’t mess with super magnums and don’t over do (except for skeet). If you are familiar with the weapon the “Ouch Factor” should not enter in during a stress situation.

    I am really quite insistent about routine shooting, not necessarily a lot of rounds, but consistent. One women near and dear was forced to use the pistol her husband gave her to stop an intruder-she fired one round, was startled and so dropped it. By the sheerest luck that wounded thug fled rather than continue. It turned out she took one shooting class years ago and had never fired it since. Please practice.

    Skeet shooting is great practice.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_VILEB5PL55DSYNCE6AMPNILKD4 Rachel

    For in-home use, do not discount a # 8 load. At the typical ranges (distances) faced inside a house #8 will punch a baseball size hole in any soft taget and will disipate energy qiuck enough so as to inly penetrate a double sheetrock wall. Very important to know info if you have a family in the house, or neigbors. A typical 9mm or .45 round will blast through multiple layers of sheetrock- a act that most neighbors do not appreciate !

  • lngrngr

    Birdshot is for birds. Check out some actual testing like that done at boxotruth.com.

  • bobjon

    Be advised ,ATF is on their high horse again, this time about banning so called non sporting shoguns that do not pass the 1968 GCA sporting test. the law already exists ,,so not too much to do to impliment it. they are after Saigas really, but will include all tactical shotguns such as the short,black, 870′s with full length under barrel shell tubes, pistol grip shotguns, and ones with removable magazines., lets hope somehow their endeavor is stopped.

  • Slinger56

    Good article. I agree totally with the bird shot being for birds too. Kybosh about it will have adequate stopping power but NOT go through a sheet rock wall.
    For those who can’t manage the recoil dished out by some scatter guns, look into a “pistol grip” style shotgun. Shooting from the hip VS the shoulder can help out dramatically in the recoil department IF learned properly. Also I believe a scattergun with a shorter barrel can be much easier to maneuver round inside your home, hallways, etc.

    Lots of handguns, but a Mossberg pistol grip with 00 buck hangs on the headboard of my bed. Get er done!

  • bobjon

    The reason for the ATF endeavor, of banning defense type shotguns, is that they dont want to have to face these type shotguns when they come to confiscate your other, or all your guns, down the road a ways, which believe me, is comming as soon as a plan can be worked out . Dont expect your politicians or courts to uphold the 2nd amendment when this comes, as they all will either be bought or too scared. as many are now, before they can impliment the new world order, one world govt, we americans will have to be disarmed, this is the last big hold up regarding such.

  • Saddlebum

    I don’t go for the funny folding stocks and pistol grips. If you can’t handle the recoil, then tuck it up under your arm when shooting at close range. And then you have a suitable buttstock ready if you need to take aim for a longer shot. If recoil is a problem, then consider a 20 gauge.
    Mossbergs appear to me to be the best buy in a reliable shotgun, (under 400.00). You can get one a little cheaper, but does the military rely on them in combat like they do the Mossberg?
    http://www.gunsamerica.com/908983292/Guns/Shotguns/Mossberg-Shotguns/Pump/Tactical/Mossberg_M88_12_ga_Maverick.htm

    http://www.gunsamerica.com/903521566/Guns/Shotguns/Mossberg-Shotguns/Pump/Tactical/_SALE_PRICE_MOSSBERG_500_PERSUADER_12G_WITH_MAGAZINE_EXTENTION_NEW.htm

    http://www.gunsamerica.com/939857324/Guns/Shotguns/Mossberg-Shotguns/Pump/Tactical/Mossberg_Model_500_Cruiser_Persuader.htm

    http://www.gunsamerica.com/905617705/Guns/Shotguns/Mossberg-Shotguns/Pump/Tactical/590_MILITARY_389_00.htm

    Concerning the possible ATF ban mentioned, I heard the definition of the ban is pretty broad and leaving descretion to the ATF so as to possibly include some or eventually all sporting shotguns too. Get one while you can!

  • Dan_in_PA

    Box O Truth is an excellent resource for close-to-real-world testing. That said, do look at the box-o-truth test of double-0 wall penetration. I’ve settled on #4 pheasant shot for the first three of six shots in my 12 ga. Double-0 thereafter.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JW4UDH2ECMLOM3ZTCGT4OWTYVI mel

    The key word here is intent. A bad guy is intent on causing physical and financial harm. Your intent is to protect your family and way of life. All this posturing by racking a pump or yelling at the intruder only tells them you lack resolve. Never compromise the safety of your family by cutting the credibility of your intent to protect.

  • JiminGA

    Mine is a Mossberg 500 12 gauge with a pistol grip and heat shield. I also have a shoulder stock for range work. The reason for the pistol grip is it’s much easier to handle indoors, and the wife is too small to handle it with the standard shoulder stock. I remember a sign on a liquor store in Baltimore during the riots in the 60′s….”Anyone found in this store at night will be found in this store in the morning”….a motto I support for my home.

  • rogers13

    I take it you’ve never had the opportunity to manage a SPAS 12. An older piece, I have found it to be reliable, effective and extremely maneuverable. Nine rounds of 00 doesn’t hurt its desirable features, either.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    Yep…Box O Truth is my fave. Anything that will penetrate a bad guy will penetrate a wall. I know many cops and have heard the stories…one of which is a cop that was training with his shotgun using bird shot, he forgot to switch back to the 00-buck loads and answered a call. He had to use his shotgun…….he was killed in the line of duty because the bird shot was ineffective. My cousin is a cop also, he told me about a call he responded to where a known gang member was shot in the face at very close range with a 12 gauge loaded with bird shot by another gang member….the guy that was shot ran away but was caught later……not dead. 00-buck or nuthin’!!

  • hicusdicus

    gone.

  • Muhjesbud

    Does ATF actually do anything anymore, that local LEO can’t do, that justifies their existence in this extreme ‘budget conscious’ government environment???! All Sheriff Departments have bomb and explosive training, including sniffing dogs, and big cities have bomb equipment rivaling the military…and most municipalities have civilian government pork employees to police and harrass bar and retail owners for cigarette and alcohol violations?

    Why don’t we really fight back against ATF and start ass-kicking our so called ‘un-corrupt’ representitives to put the bright Surefire light of scrutiny on their useless overpaid jobs?. Maybe this will convince them of the ‘mistake’ they are making?

  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    And how will his advice get me killed? He’s not saying use something smaller, he’s saying error on the side of bigger.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_I2YAQK7YDYUTX4IYQPHT4MBR6I doubledip62

    Question: is any thing in my place worth your life? think about it! I DO SHOOT TO KILL!

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • Saddlebum

    Don’t make me laugh! The Judge is a puny little POC. You actually compare that thing to a 12 gauge? Your ignorance about guns and weakness for popular press about it is showing. I won’t argue about it. The Judge is a joke!

  • Saddlebum

    I have no need to spend 1,200.00 on that contraption for a home defense shotgun. If it tickles your fancy, go for it! It’s kind of a matter of personal preference. I can get a fine handgun and a shotgun for that much money and be much happier. If the Mossberg is good enough for our troops, it’s good enough for me.

  • wsp1

    Gee…the wannabee rambos are out in force today…with the usual mindless advice that will get most of you killed.
    Shotguns work well if you are trained, well trained…they do not operate on their own and many individuals short rack them under stress and could not clear a jam in a week let alone in seconds. The avg person is better with a “good” auto like a Rem 1100 tactical, Benelli M4 etc…can’t afford one…save longer…Use reduced recoil loads…terminal effect is the same…bbls over 18in are tough to maneuver in a home environment without significant training.The 20 gague is fine at the typical indoor distances…use #3buck, and a slog alternating…better yet …use a Rhodesian ball and buck load…much more effective…I have seen it work. I listen to all the crap that is given…it is so much bull. There is nothing in your home…nothing…other than your life and your family’s life worth killing anyone over. You retreat to your safest room, you have the shotgun, you dial 911, and you shoot anything that advances on you through the door of your “safe” area…end of story. You do not go looking for the bad guy…idiots…none of you are trained in effective methods for sweeping a room, clearing multiple rooms etc dealing with multiple intruders…who are you kidding…some of us did this for a living and know how difficult it is without constant practice and real life experience…you listen to the idiots on here telling you how they shoot first etc and go after the bad guy and i’ll show you some high end defense att’y that will have their butts in lock up for 20 yrs…
    Ask you self why you think its OK to kill someone over a TV, because the law says so?…maybe..but then ask yourself why you would want too?..if you do not get the right answer…you are part of the problem…not the solution. Tough guys..al wanna kill someone, all wanna brag to their buddies…fools and idiots everyone.

  • wsp1

    different scenarios, different training…it is not the same.

  • Rarscal88

    Any gun in a home for protection of occupants is better than no gun ! I’ve encountered many neophytes who are chilled by the prospect of having to actually shoot someone. I suspect we’ve all given the concept serious consideration at some time and come down on the side of survival. As a public service, we gun toters should have a moderate pro gun delivery ready to convince the uninitiated of their value, starting with our friends and relatives !

  • wsp1

    If you do not think you will be sued by a neighbor etc for over penetration…think again…if you lived next to me…and were putting #00 buck rds through the side of your house, into the open..you would be looking at jail tfor a long long time….I guarantee it…and the civil costs etc…you do not even want to think about it.

  • bobjon

    A nice shotgun for home defense is the Rem 870 tactical in 20 ga.18 inch with full length under tube . they are lighter and handier than a 12 ga ,very suitable for smaller persons .or large persons for handling.and your fps velocity is as fast as 12 ,also muzzle energy,per pellet, but only a little less shot. no. 3 or 4 buck is an excellent load. these are a low production gun and extremly hard to find and get .but occassionally can find a distribuitor that has one ,dealer cost is under 300, think I paid 269 for last one (am FFL) a while back ,now am searching for another ,was foolish to let that one go. much prefer them to mossberg. owning a mossberg jungle gun ,,the military semi auto, soured me on mossberg. had to use 2 hands to unload shells ,needed 3,, got finger stuck under shell flipper and if had been in combat would have ripped end of finger off getting loose. as it was ,was very painful guess the pumps are better in that respect tho. used to like the winchester 1300 20 ga defender till they went out of bussiness.

  • rogers13

    to each his own.  by the way, i bought that weapon through the mail….new for $349 about 25 or so years ago.  a cheap date in my book.  no bad for sporting clays, either.  a bit heavy for that, though.

    lr

  • wsp1

    It is a good choice….but people do not practice with them…and they can and will fail. They make inexpensive doubles and O/U…for less than $400. They work every time…are short, handy…and easy to operate…If you need more thatn two 12/20 gauge rounds….you are doing something very wrong….no one needs an 8 rd combat shotgun…unless they are going into combat?….I have shot them all, and two rds out of a double can be reloaded in less than 1.5 secs, with a little practice..more than adequate for anything the average home owner will run across.

  • DesertRefugee

    I agree with posts on here that consistent practice will obviate the “ouch factor.” Firing from the hip offers a strong position for women and children, as it affords more control during recoil. However, practice makes perfect, and the butt should not be placed on the tip of the pelvic (hip) bone. Firing with the butt under the arm can also eliminate recoil, but it is important to maintain a good grip on the gun. Remember that a shotgun is “big and loud,” and will frighten novices the first time they pull the trigger. Re-position yourself to accomodate the power and the report of the weapon, and focus on hitting your target. The shotgun IS the weapon of choice for home-defense peace of mind.

  • http://www.facebook.com/greg.vermeychuk Greg Vermeychuk

    Great article. My personal favorite is a 12ga Benelli with a 20″ cylinder bore tube and 6 round magazine for a total of 7. I like the #4 buck in 2-3/4″ high base loads. More pellets. One thing that should be pointed out is that the shotgun is not the magic broom. You have to aim (or at least point) it to get results. At typical “across the room” distances (say 12 – 15 feet) the pattern from a cylinder bore 12 ga is about 6″ in diameter. Hold for the center of mass. I’ve tried the SureFire flashlight in the fore-end setup, and personally I don’t like it. I like the ghost ring and tritium illuminated post front sight for my own use.
    When training people of small stature, I’ll start them off with a 20 ga like the Remington 1100. Benelli also makes a 20 ga semi-auto, but I haven’t seen it in “tactical” configuration. That would be an ideal setup, light, fast, and throws enough lead to do the job.

  • jcarroll727

    Remember, Guns are made for killing. Never put gun in hand unless you use it. And when you shoot-shoot to kill. After he falls, the Coup-de-Grace shot willmake sure the wounded rattlesnake will not get up and kill you. That said, Threaten a bad man and he will take your gun and kill you with it.
    If someone is at the morgue and the oter explaining to the cops–I want to be talking to the cops.

  • gofigure560

    “The Judge is a joke” ??
    I don’t have one, but the demo showing a concrete block exploding would seem to indicate that the culprit would not find it a joke.

  • wsp1

    So you train the avg 120lb 5’4 woman to wield a 12 M2 or M4 wih 7rds? They must spend alot of time at the gym….Tactical conf…what is that?….if it has hi vis sights…it will do the job…the surefire lights work well…that is of course if you are trained to identify your target before you shoot…I have never seen a tritium insert illumminate anything

  • wsp1

    If you ‘shoot” someone…and they are down..they are no longer a threat…if they get up and advance on you …shoot them again…you advice is assinine…if you “finish” anyone off…forensics will hang you ..as it should …and you will be doing time…as you should.

  • wsp1

    do you actually think the guy with the birdshot in his face…and the story will always change…was still a threat…please….

  • bobjon

    Once when i had my little shop at home ,I had in stock or as a personal piece a mossberg 500 .410 cruiser ,,18 inch with pistol grip only. I kept it handy as a shop defense gun ,loaded with 5 pellets, 000 buck in 3 inch shells . and at night hung on wall by my bed. one day an oriental young man dressed in black, was in my shop, (said he was vietnamese) and he looked at it ,,he said wow! a cruiser huh? that would be great for riding around in a back seat and doing a drive by!!! think ill take it ,I said well you probably wouldnt pass the back ground ,if you do drive bys ,he said, “oh yeah, I never get caught” ,”we do drive bys all the time down in the city”,(I live rural),,so not wanting to cause trouble i told him ,well we have a lot of malfunctions with these ,not dependable, dont think you’d like it . so he decided he didnt want it . later I wished I could have recorderd him or something and called the cops while he still there, but was so shocked, just wasnt thinking ,,was trying to kill the sale without causing trouble and maybe getting shot .

  • Saddlebum

    The culprit would not find it a joke if he was popped in the forehead with a .22lr either……So what’s your point?

    If I ever get in a gunfight, I just hope the other guy is using a Judge. It says alot about a person who has one and would be a real confidence builder for me.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • http://www.facebook.com/Grumblejones Chuck Regnier

    you got that right. I wonder when the sky will fall?

  • http://www.facebook.com/Grumblejones Chuck Regnier

    Have they came for yours yet ??

  • http://www.facebook.com/Grumblejones Chuck Regnier

    I have a coach gun and an 835 ULTRA TURKEY W/ AN 18 1/2 ‘ BBL. I’m not worried about the BATFE or any one else coming in my house. They can do at their own risk. WE’ll argue about the legalities after the fact.

  • Saddlebum

    You are hilarious! What magazine article did you read to come up with that drivel? It IS a big seller because folks like you buy that crap in the magazines articles and sales ads before you buy that ridiculous little joke.

    Thong underwear is really popular too…..But I ain’t going there either!
    Have a nice day!

  • AttilaTheHen

    Well, any number of hunters can tell you about a dumba** shooting them at close range with birdshot.

    I remember plucking birdshot out of my dad’s head and scalp when I was about 10 or 11 years old. Oh, man was he hot and admittedly it was mostly because I was with him and it could have been his little girl that got shot. Believe me, he was much more than just a “threat” to the pinhead that peppered him on that particular dove hunt! I feel certain that, that young man became more diligent in the field for the rest of his life.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Grumblejones Chuck Regnier

    25 round’s of .380 ???? 00 Buck is .32, I thought there were 12 in the shell. I could be wrong.

  • wsp1

    When and if the ATF or any other Fed agenccy show up at your house or any other persons home…they will more than likely have the proper warrants…that leaves you no where…end of story…If you resist…they have the ability to use overwhelming force to neutralize the situation in ways and means you can not even imagine….you need to get a grip…and get in reality….

  • wsp1

    size/ 2 3/4 or 3 in…

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • gofigure560

    The point is obvious. In the case of the .22 lr the guy may have no more
    than a headache, and it requires an accurate shot. Even wiith birdshot in
    the judge, if the culprit gets a face full of that, he’ll need a seeing eye
    dog to proceed.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Grumblejones Chuck Regnier

    Have you been shot with a .41 CAL bullet / That’s what a .410 is. They hurt and will ruin your day. NO firearm is a worthless P.O.S. if it hit’s you.

  • gofigure560

    That’s what I always hope for — that the other guy is stupid enough to be
    confident !

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • http://www.facebook.com/Grumblejones Chuck Regnier

    I’ve owned four of the SPAS 12′s in their day they were the BEST. They are nothing to be laughed at ,(If pointed at you ,today).

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • http://www.facebook.com/Grumblejones Chuck Regnier

    $225.00 when I owned them.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Grumblejones Chuck Regnier

    NOW ,that’s a profound statement. I have that on my screen / Storm door.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_UBPNK5AARUGRQCKIR5HGTBGL7I First L

    I think the attention they’re getting from their project gunrunner fiasco is the door being opened on this initiative. We the people need to follow up and keep the pressure on. There really is no need for this bureau anymore, my apologies to the good guys on the bureau but perhaps you should seek employment on the state or local level…

  • bobjon

    Of course not, but they havent developed a complete plan yet. probably will do it by steps ,,first on list is tactical shotguns ,next will be semi autos , I am FFL and privy to quite a bit of information from ATF and other various sources. don’t think for a minute they wont do it ,,this has been in the plan and works for a long time. some of the FFLs have been under terrible harrassment ,that is another part of the plan to reduce them as much as possible,,I’ve been real careful and tried to keep a low profile. as much as possible and be extremly careful about stings ,,which they are using heavily. these snakes have methods that they can almost walk one into a sting without you realizing it .
    —– Original Message —–
    From: Disqus
    To: bobj_527@msn.com
    Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:24 AM
    Subject: [heo] Re: Shotguns: The Best Felon Killing Home Defense Tool Ever Made

    Chuck Regnier wrote, in response to bobjon:

    Have they came for yours yet ??

    Link to comment: http://disq.us/1jem5l

  • wsp1

    Attila…it is all about distance, load and poi…the face is different than the back of the head…15ft is different than 25ft, # 6 shot is differnt than #8 etc….I am sure you Dad was angry…But the reaction is different under a stress induced scenario when the chance of a second strike is very real etc.survival instinct..fight or flight all of this and many other pysiological and psychological trauma induced actions/reactions strt to happen automatically..the surprise afforded by a hunting accident is actually advantageous to the person being hit in many ways…they are not stressed, and sometimes the very fact that they were not expecting it oand were relaxed saves them from more serious injury.. etc…of course afterwards…they are very stressed…but still happy to be breathing, so while there are always anecdotal stories of the exception to the rule…it is rare and unlikely to occur in most real life encounters.

  • john0476

    If the guy is down, how do you know he’s not faking or has enough strength left to draw a weapon and shoot you from the floor, especially when your attention is split between watching him and calling the cops? Without backup, I’d never get close enough to the downed guy to check his condition. Unless he’s obviously dead (skull at least half gone), go for the killing shot. I’ll take my chances with the forensics and the castle doctrine. Not worth risking my life, even for a longshot.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • http://www.facebook.com/Grumblejones Chuck Regnier

    Ok. let an OLD gunman try now. I still like the Winchester 97. NO dis connector, HOLD THE TRIGGER AND PUMP. 6 Rd’s. in 6 seconds. That’s Shot gunning.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=503200831 Oscar Chase Dillon

    The average person couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with baseball bat, but that isn’t the point here, when you are trying to sell an $1500 to $2000+ auto-loader shotgun, now is it?

    Now, I have to take back the first part of the above, because I know a lot of average folks, who own shotguns, and who actually can hit a fence post as well as the side of the aforementioned barn. They do it with double barrels, pumps, and autos.

    You are crazy if you think the average person, with little training can’t effectively use a shotgun. The only thing ‘training’ will do is give that person the muscle memory of what to do when pulling a trigger. It will not, absolutely positively not, give them the will to use any firearm on another human. No amount of legal training will do that. It has to come from the heart and soul of the person defending themselves and family.

    Just saying.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=503200831 Oscar Chase Dillon

    WSP1, I’m beginning to wonder if you have ever been in a “lethal use” situation at all. If the threat is down on the ground, they are most assuredly still a threat until disarmed. If they’re armed, weapon in hand, then you warn ‘em and shoot.

    Just saying.

  • wsp1

    exactly…too much Hollywoood, Gaming etc…no real life experience. It takes about $20 bucks to get a shhet of dry wall…make several targets out of it and see what a real load does…then there is no guessing. I was fortunate enough to be part of groups?govt that had serious amounts of specialized traing..and know what happens etc…we had to understand ballistics, targets, cover etc to understand what our weapons could and could not do…you life depended on it…these jokers….they do not have a clue….it is sad…because of their ignorance and macho attitudes,…if is the biggest threat we have to our 2nd amendment rights…we will do it for Obama…he just has to sit and wait.

  • http://twitter.com/B_M_Anderson Bruce M Anderson

    http://gunowners.org/netb.htm HR 2640 Veterans Disarmament Act & S 2084 dereliction of duty to the Oath of office as the leadership of common defense Direct Criminal Constitutional Contempt of Court The Supreme Court ruled such Bans Unconstitutional, fight back with tort claims and Sovereign law that constitutes a true state of law and freedom set forth by our framers, United States Title 42 United States Code section 1983 Supreme Court has Upheld this the right of self defense 5-4 Am McDonald v. Chicago,
    When the Leadership of common defense seeks to dis arm we the people in a time of war its called Treason,

    http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00001983—-000-.html

  • JingoJohn

    Nice to know the author read my comments on the last ‘shotgun’ essay. (SEE FOOT NOTE.)

    As I stated in those comments:
    “…I have personal experience with a “camp robber” at roughly 20 FEET. The jerk damn near SHP when I jacked my Rem. 870. THAT, is not HOME DEFENSE, but close to it….”
    Maybe he did NOT ‘…damn near SHP (I did not stop him to check his underwear)….
    but he DID LEAVE as fast as he could. Which, was THE OBJECT and far, FAR less hassle than reams of paperwork and a sheriffs investigation.

    Perhaps some who “…carried a shotgun in a patrol car for more than 10 years…”
    Want ‘scalps’.
    I want intruders OUT & AWAY FROM my loved ones.

    I would like to know if the author actually “drew down” or fired on someone in the line of duty?
    MOST cops NEVER draw a weapon (except at the range).

    ALSO, the author NEEDS to read (and heed) the comments on shot by “Truncheon” “texexpatriate” and “DaneChile” (SEE FOOT NOTE)

    Keep knocking “bird shot” but consider the following sentences first.
    The first shot is the most likely to “go bad”.
    I load bird shot. Why? (a) If it is “good” it will work at the 5-20 FEET ranges I anticipate in MY home. (b) if it is “bad” it stands less chance of retaining enough energy to harm one of my loved ones.
    Keep in mind you are NOT shooting at 50 or 100 yards at a range! And, you are not shooting at barricaded perps wearing body armor.

    Being comfortable and COMPETENT with the piece you select is probably more important than bore or shot load.
    The THREE (3) things you NEVER want to forget are:
    1. TARGET IDENTIFICATION
    2. TARGET IDENTIFICATION
    3. TARGET IDENTIFICATION! (SEE FOOT NOTE)

    “…Remember, it will probably be dark, you do NOT want to blast your kid coming home for a surprise visit!…” (SEE FOOT NOTE)

    For my situation; at home, clear chamber, then, I load (1) bird shot, 2-5 single ought buck, 6-7-8 slugs
    When I camp and hunt in Grizzly country, I load only Brenneke “Black Magic” Magnum; 3014 ft/lbs at the muzzle!

    FOOT NOTE:
    Home Defense: 12 Gauge 00 Buckshot Can’t Be Beat
    by Robert M. Engstrom
    03/01/2011, HUMAN EVENTS

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=503200831 Oscar Chase Dillon

    Do you know anything about penetration factors for buckshot at all?

    In a townhouse, there is a brick firewall stopping the rounds.

    Regular house depends on construction, but the buckshots lethality will stop at the outside wall after going through drywall and insulation.

    The only weak point in any housing type are the windows.

    Just saying.

  • omypoppa

    Good advice, I know I am one who was not aware of this fact.
    I do not have a weapon of any type, but do believe in ownership of guns that are for sport and defensive purposes. We just never could afford one and hope to never need it.

  • http://twitter.com/B_M_Anderson Bruce M Anderson

    Lawsuit Filed Against Post Office Fire Arm Ban

    http://www.ammoland.com/2010/11/22/lawsuit-filed-against-post-office-gun-ban/
    Thank God someone is Standing up to these Tyrants Shall Not be infringed
    Congress Shall pass no law

  • http://twitter.com/B_M_Anderson Bruce M Anderson

    That is Not complete-ly so, An armed society, is a polite society” ~ Thomas Jefferson , We the people or common areas v/s The privet Home, Privet owner Ship. As Such Congress has no Authority over The privet Home, Privet owner Ship Like a Store etc! The Sovereignty views! A Police Officer the Common defense actors of the League that gets to carry his or Her Arms when ever where ever Like a Court house as everyone els is being disarmed! Even thought the historical facts say They May not carry as a enforcement… of Law for it was viewed as a act of Intimidation By the defense you was paying taxes to protect you! The HR 218 Bill was fought over such views , The Leadership of such defense can not seek to restraint such rights is More or less a act of treason—
    ‎2004 President George W. Bush signed H.R. 218 into law was The 2 Amendment being upheld, Congress Shall Pass no Law to Abridge & Shall Not be infringed, The Supreme court can’t restrain,”only the seller may refuse”, The only reason Law enforcement can carry in action of the courts is for such views other wise, Officers can not carry its unconstitutional
    To Bad the “Late” Federal Judge Roll Did not understand such as with the Rancher case!

    The Only permit needed By we the people is Out lined in the 2 Amendment, Shall Not be Infringed Congress Shall pass no law to Abridge, any less of a view is Direct Constitutional contempt! H.R. 218 is a out line of such! We the people or common areas v/s The privet Home, Privet owner Ship Like a Store etc. Congress has no Authority over The privet Home, Privet owner Ship Like a Store etc!
    If the the views of Obama would be disarming even his own protection that means the police or the League or common defense could Not carry?
    That was the reason Impart for Court Summons, Because of the Respect of we the people Secure in ones Self and home without fear of we the people! People can Still Sue for Such if officers comes into your home Armed! its viewed as a act of War! Or as such!

    Once your Outside the Door Your Fare Game So To Speak

    That was part of the Legal Fight of HR 218, !

    Again The reform of our courts is Badly needed Matter– to fight such you have to file a Tort Claim and use such Laws As Like US Title 42 usc section 1983
    Even With Search warrants, If they come in Your home if they do not dis arm them Selves Before hand it could be fought in Court!

  • Saddlebum

    That’s your argurment? I don’t smoke, but maybe YOUR the one smokin some bad pot. Just keep posting. Your Judge mentality is showing!

  • dirtwork

    I live in California and assume it will cost us between $20k and $50K if I use my Model 12 W with the #00 buck on an intruder. The 18in BL is esential. Backup is a 357 or 44 mag. Lawsuits and amuniyion are cheap compared to my and my wife’s life.

  • wsp1

    Let me explain this too you..it is quite simple…first.You have a light right? Because you are not stupid…you want to know what your target is correct? Don’t want to shoot the kid returning from a drinking binge at school, or you drunk neighbor etc who is in the wrong house?..You missed your initial shot? Why?…Ok, you did not double tap him initially? Why? So, you can still see if he is moving or not, because he was fairly close when you shot him initially, and you have him in your sights with your light on etc. …you dial 911 by pushing 1 digit on your phone, not to tough….you do have it set for speed dial and speaker …right? You do not have to get close to him, you do not have to check his condition…not your problem..are you a trained EMT, Dr. or Combat medic…what are you going to check? Forget it….you stay in your safe position with your weapon trained on him…in the light you have focused on him…and the phone is on speaker…and you watch closely…if there appears to be a threatening move…you shoot…so get over the overblown, movie scenarios etc.and Hollywood hype….people hit with shotguns go down, they make noise, they moan, they talk or they die, or any combination of these actions..your job is to stay focused, stay behind cover, and watch to see if further action is warranted…this is what the pros do…I did it for 17 yrs in more alphabet groups than you or anyone else even know exist…but hey…your a tough guy, you have lived through all these scenarios…do it your way…see what happens…

  • hicusdicus

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  • DG2011

    You all should be thankful you can afford to purchase a gun for home defense. But being disabled and a single parent there is no money for anything.
    Be thankful you are blessed with health and wealth and the ability to have the tools needed to protect your family’s.
    I would love a Mossberg 930 spx 18.5″ semi auto 8 shot. I have problems with pump shotguns because of my physical limitations.

    God Bless America

  • gofigure560

    The Judge, being a 5 round revolver, should be pretty reliable too.

  • Saddlebum
  • wsp1

    Yes…many times unfortunately…but civilain use, military use and govt agency use are all different. Civilians have no need to check on anyones condition etc. I did not say they were not a potential threat when down…I said “finishing” them off is unacceptable. If you hit properly…like all these would be experts would have you believe…then you have no problems..but we know it is bull…so the individual goes down…do you know many people hit with a shotgun? Do you know many people that function well wounded, bleeding out? If you are in a ‘safe” position, with proper tactics, light and shotgun…you can readily see wether or not follow up action is necessary…you do not need to expose yourself, risk life or limb..you stay put, you watch..and if it appears the threat is still relelvant…you shoot. Then when you are explaining to the authorities what you did, there will be no question that you were in a defensive mode, took defensive actions at at no time unwittingly or willingly exposed yourself to possible harm, you did not advance, you did nothing overly agressive..get it. You did everything you could to avoid the situation. The end result of which was unfortunate and ended in a possible loss of life which you tried to avoid. Killing should always be a last resort…unless that is what you are trained and paid to do.

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  • propwash72

    You’re kidding right? A coup-de-grace shot is the surest way to get a trip to the pen. That’ll turn a self-defense case into a murder case real quick. Shoot to stop…if the attack stops, you’re done pulling the trigger

  • Jason_1977

    you shoot to neutralize the threat. You aim at the center of mass that is presented. You shoot because the other guy has the OPPORTUNITY, MEANS, & INTENT to kill you & not for any other reason. If ONE of those is missing….you cannot shoot. That’s the lethal force triangle right there. Shooting to kill IS shooting to stop. Use the force necessary to stop the threat. You don’t go out of your way to shoot to mame.

    I had to memorize this in the military and recite it verbatim: Deadly force is that force which is used for the purpose of causing, whether a person knows or should know would create a substantial risk of death or serious bodily harm. It’s use is authorized in conditions of extreme necessity when all lesser means have failed or could not have been reasonably employed.

    GIVEN the average private citizen isn’t standing guard duty w. their general orders of a sentry floating in their head, the lethal force triangle will SAVE you or DAMN you in court. You have to prove ALL 3 were present when you pulled the trigger. You aim at the center of mass at the target that is presented. Neutralizing the threat is the ONLY concern you have…. When the jury hears you say THAT instead of…”um, yer honur, ah shot tuh keep ‘im livin’ so I wouldn’t git in trubble”….MAN!!!! some people in here REALLY need formal training. HOURS of it!

  • Stevod

    12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
    For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

  • bobjon

    youre right in most cases ,but in future we may have multiple attackers if economy totally collapses ,and some of us living rural with out helpful close neighbors or close police help, might need the capability.
    personally have aquirred a saiga 12 and a 410 for wife ,,long magaizines and drums ,and havent had a malfunction yet ,as aks are sort of that way. however ATF may spoil this for us, and may never get a chance to use them on said attackers. may have to go back to single shots HA,,,

  • hicusdicus

    The ATF is almost a dangerous as the DEA and both of them are anti second amendment. They both will walk all over your rights faster than Obama can make a fool of himself. If you think either one of these agency’s are doing any good then Obama is the man for you.

  • Jason_1977

    you shoot to neutralize the threat. You aim at the center of mass that is presented. You shoot because the other guy has the OPPORTUNITY, MEANS, & INTENT to kill you & not for any other reason. If ONE of those is missing….you cannot shoot. That’s the lethal force triangle right there. Shooting to kill IS shooting to stop. Use the force necessary to stop the threat. You don’t go out of your way to shoot to mame.

    I had to memorize this in the military and recite it verbatim: Deadly force is that force which is used for the purpose of causing, whether a person knows or should know would create a substantial risk of death or serious bodily harm. It’s use is authorized in conditions of extreme necessity when all lesser means have failed or could not have been reasonably employed.

    GIVEN the average private citizen isn’t standing guard duty w. their general orders of a sentry floating in their head, the lethal force triangle will SAVE you or DAMN you in court. You have to prove ALL 3 were present when you pulled the trigger. You aim at the center of mass at the target that is presented. Neutralizing the threat is the ONLY concern you have…. When the jury hears you say THAT instead of…”um, yer honur, ah shot tuh keep ‘im livin’ so I wouldn’t git in trubble”….MAN!!!! some people in here REALLY need formal training. HOURS of it!

  • wsp1

    We are not talking about will…we are talking about technique…most people do not have a mind set for killing…that is good…makes society a nice place to be. Weapons are personal…but the less an untrained person needs to do ..the better…doubles and O/U’s work best for novices…auto’s are easy if kept laoded..and they soak up recoil etc, but need to be throughly vetted with proper ammunition to ensure reliability…but the good ones are very good..the rest are so so…So you can waste all your money on other junk and mouth about safety etc…then let you life hang on a second rate weapon…your choice..
    Trained for 3 year s with British Marines and 5th SAS, #44 command, German GS9 and Freanch Legion..I was a liason officer. Worked for CIA, NCS,SOG,SAD, DSE, DIA and others, GS 12..get it…our job was killing people. Brits liked Browining humpback auto 5′s with an 8 rd extension, used p-35′s browniings, invented the double tap…like silenced K9′s, Carl Gustav smg’s ..used Malaya loads, hand made, or Rhodesian loads..buck and balls, Used Mozambique Shuffle, Mossad walk and other techniques…I have forgotten more than most people will ever learn,…but it goes back to number one…technique is great,,,but if you do not have the mindset…well….it is what it is. Sorry…all the so called “hardcore” vets I have met over the years really do not have a clue…Seals, Recon, Special Forces etc..they are all good…but not as good as we were…why…they all had a different mission profile…we only had one…we went through all their schools and then more of our own…with one mission, terminate the target. I just tell you what I know…you do what you want…but combat ops do not equate to civialian scenarios…which is why those who operated within that environment tend to be Agendy types…who have a very different view..and no problem walking up and putting two in your forehead, and your wife..and your kid too., and walk away before the last casing hit the ground…which is foreign ammo anyway…no tracks

  • hicusdicus

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  • wsp1

    good for you…to many think this is a game..

  • wsp1

    depends on the scenario….

  • wsp1

    by a stoeger double…it is less monay and will do the job for you …easy to handle etc.

  • scaatylobo

    Great stuff,I was LEO and have done hundreds [ thousands ? ] of house clearings.
    Its not fun and the pucker factor even after all those times is still high.
    I would tell any wannabe house clearing shooter, try it in the dark with your gun and see how ‘easy’ it is NOT.

  • scaatylobo

    The “judge” is a gimmick and judging from the buyers = it works.

    The new model with plastic lower is not bad ,IF you load it with .45 LC or 410 slugs.

    Then you have a 5 shot pocket snub with LOTS of punch.

    I have shot the 410 “buckshot” out of a pistol its a joke to actually hit anything past 3 feet.

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  • scaatylobo

    Sorry,but at 20 feet NONE of those 3 buckshot rounds will hit in front of you.

    But its a good anchor for a small boat.

    Try that shot at 20 feet and post your results,then go buy a real gun = just in case the shot is past 3 feet.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_UBPNK5AARUGRQCKIR5HGTBGL7I First L

    I have to agree on the dangerous aspect to some extent, any organization can be misused or misdirected, it mostly depends on the leadership. Unfortunately/Fortunately there are also some decent folks who just want to do they’re jobs, they have families to support, and are just as worried about how to pay the bills as you and I. These are the people who I hope will walk away or better yet, speak up, the day they’re leaders cross the line. Its up to all of us to hold the leadership accountable, to be involved and speak up when laws are being passed or regulations or policies enacted that fly in the face of what we know to be right.

  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    Have you never seen someone on pcp? How about the cop that was training with his shotgun using bird shot, he forgot to switch back to the 00-buck loads and answered a call. He had to use his shotgun…….he was killed in the line of duty because the bird shot was ineffective.

  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    He tests the effectiveness of guns and ammo, he does not give legal advice

  • hicusdicus

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  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    Kinda hard to miss? Let me guess, you just have to point in the general direction, don’t even have to aim…right? You’re spreading fud and YOU are going to get someone killed.

  • wsp1

    great ..another survivalist type,…and when you have shot everyone…then what..you think they all just go away..or do they return with whatever firepower is necessary to finish the job..You and people like you are paranoid idiots. You have food, medical equip and training, sanitation, water purification, power, communications equip, transportation, fuel etc…what planet are you on?…stop reading the local blogs and other survival hype and get real.

    You need one weapon, and you need to know how to use it. What ever you have, someone will have someting bigger and more of them…get it. Get something user friendly, easy to repair, ammo is readilly available… I have a few H&R toppers in 12 and 20 stashed around. Thye are cheap, effective and all you need…why…because..with one gun …you can get any other gun you want. Single shot..easy to shoot, quick to load…light compact…deadly. They are in my cars and other places..they are approx $120 a piece. The weapon you have beats the one in the safe everyday of the week. I own them all…but carry a beretta 21a that is surpressed every day…I can hit and kill with every gun known to man..was trained for it…but when I need to…i am close and right there in your face…and two 4ogr subsonic rds work wonders…always have..

    22′s, 9mm .38 .45acp.223, 308….12/20′s…any other caliber is useless and a waste of time…these are universal and can be found anywhere…you can do more damage and survival with the .22 then most if you know what you are doing.

    persoanlly..I use suppresssed rugers in .22 both rifle and pistol…i have the others…but reality is…light, small and quiet is better…survival scenarios rarely look like firefights…stealth and cunning are your best bet.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6RCY4ZFWJ5KJFGO45SP45HF22U old

    They will laddie, they will.

  • wsp1

    Oscar…I will try and tell you this one more time….Buck shot will penetrate unless there is masonry..got it? it will go through several walls in the avg. home with no problem. So , you start shootin up the place…i assume you are alone, no one in other rooms etc.? right?…of course windows are great. shattered glass flying etc…You need to stop trying to be the expert…because you are obviously not…
    Of course none of the idiots here have eye protection, hearing protection or a vest close at hand right…except me..it all sit on a ‘valet” next to the bed in the corner with my shotgun…and takes 10 sec to employ..because all of you have been in a firefight in a home, and know about muzzle flash, noise, flying debris etc…and undersatnd that once shots are fired you can not hear crap etc…but i am sorry…i forgot I am surrounded by experts…

  • wsp1

    exactly…no one does it alone…even with a team ..it is tough..

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  • wsp1

    real pros train for the worse …then pray they never have to use it…only a fool likes to kill.

  • Saddlebum

    Are you trolling me now? Dealing with someone that has common sense and a little knowlege, experience with guns seems to really intimidate you. A while ago you claimed I was hiding under the bed wetting myself. Now you are asking me if I’m a suburban commando?….Trolling?

    The comment I made that you are refering to is about the quality of the gun. Nothing else. Your just trying to make something out of it because you made a fool of yourself by bringing up the Judge when the rest of us were discussing defensive shotguns. That’s not my fault! I was minding my own business when you used my post to try to promote your funny little gun. I responded. Try to get over it and have a nice day!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6RCY4ZFWJ5KJFGO45SP45HF22U old

    They will more than likely have the proper warrants? So did the King’s Soldiers April 19, 1775. See how that ended? Yes they often “use overwhelming force to neutralize the situation”-we call it the Vicky Weaver syndrome. Waco was the repeat. We need to dress our ATF agents in red coats and wigs.

    March obediently into the re-education camp if you will, I choose to live my life as a free man. Your “get in reality” is entirely too close to “Arbeit macht frei”.

    Back on topic–yes the shotgun is a fine home defense weapon. I wanted claymore mines but my neighbors objected. The UPS driver wasn’t all that thrilled either.

    George Washington: “Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people’s liberty teeth (and) keystone… the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable… more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference . When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour.” (Address to 1st session of Congress)

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • wsp1

    good answer….remember…free advice is just that…free advice…you take it or leave it…no need to get angry or upset about it. it is what it is…after all…all the experts here i am sure have been in the proper scenarios, executed flawlessly, are in a constant state of readiness and know the law inside out and are certain that the law enforecment community and courts will be on their side…un huh…

  • http://twitter.com/jdglock JD Glock

    I agree with most of the article, but take issue with using a semi-auto (unless physical ability is an issue), I don’t want the added complexity. And I don’t “rack” the gun hoping the sound makes a difference (which it probably won’t) because it gives away my position. And I use 00 buck – absolutely not birdshot (boxotruth or not). And my 12 ga, 6 shot Mossberg Persuader is being changed out for a 9 shot Mossberg 590. Can’t beat .72 caliber.
    For more discussion, all of you might look at MossbergOwners.com

  • wsp1

    This is worth repeating in my humble opinion…

    Civilain use, military use and govt agency use are all different. Civilians have no need to check on anyones condition etc. I did not say they(bad guy) were not a potential threat when down…I said “finishing” them off is unacceptable. If you hit properly…like all these would be experts would have you believe…then you have no problems..but we know it is bull…so the individual goes down…do you know many people hit with a shotgun? Do you know many people that function well wounded, bleeding out? If you are in a ‘safe” position, with proper tactics, light and shotgun…you can readily see wether or not follow up action is necessary…you do not need to expose yourself, risk life or limb..you stay put, you watch..and if it appears the threat is still relevant…you shoot.

    Important lesson for all…

    Then when you are explaining to the authorities what you did, there will be no question that you were in a defensive mode, took defensive actions and at no time unwittingly or willingly exposed yourself to possible harm, you did not advance, you did nothing overly agressive..get it. You did everything you could to avoid the situation. The end result of which was unfortunate and ended in a possible loss of life which you tried to avoid. You were justified in your use of deadly force to stop an “imminent” threat to your/families life. Killing should always be a last resort…

  • wsp1

    You are sorely mistaken….and you are putiing pout misinformation that will get people killed or jailed

  • wsp1

    great …another would be constitutional scholar…last time I checked it is 2011…and the precedent and body of case law which takes priority in our judicial system is substantial..you need to get a grip and stop the bull about Washinton, Jefferson etc…none of which will have any bearing on the outcome when the time comes.

  • hicusdicus

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  • wsp1

    you really expect to need 9 rds? Why?

  • hicusdicus

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  • lingothree

    Saiga-12, 3″ Magnum 000 buck/1 oz. Super-X slugs, 10-round magazines, semi-auto with AK reliability. Tapco T6 stock and gas piston, tri-rail, vertical grip, Olight M20. Lights up things that go “bump” in the night in so many ways… Removes interior walls with only one reload.

  • wsp1

    trust me on this one…sometimes even the law is not enough,…if politics are involved, elections, advocacy groups etc…you could end up being the ‘example” that they want…in a negative way.

  • hicusdicus

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  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    I apologize, I must have misunderstood what you wrote. I still stand by 00-buck over bird shot. I don’t want to distract someone in my home. I’m in Kalifornia, while we don’t have a “castle doctrine” , if we “feel that our life is in danger”, or BG is advancing toward us, we are legal to use deadly force. (obviously this may change from state to state) If someone is hit with bird shot, and they feel that they have a chance of getting out it’s possible that they may run, but if you are blocking the door, they may feel that their life is in danger and start shooting back. I’m not a big fan of being shot at.

  • http://twitter.com/jdglock JD Glock

    Sometimes the BG comes in pairs or more, plus the 590 I’m getting is a std stock and doesn’t necessarily need a side-saddle for the added 5 – I am keeping the gun as smooth as possible with no sling, flashlight, or such to possibly hang up.

  • hicusdicus

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  • Saddlebum

    More trolling?……Be sure to get all my posts. Don’t miss any!

  • http://twitter.com/jdglock JD Glock

    +1 on the no flashlight, just like not racking the gun.

  • wsp1

    Try this ….FBI stats…over 28% of police shootings were police shooting themselves…point? Our trained police continually have mishaps etc. yet, All the experts here are so certain of their “untested” capablities,and putting forth their mantra of training and tactical advice… 99% of which is wrong, continue on is blessed ignorance, safe in the certainty they somehow have it all right.

    It amazes me how many experts are on here…we are truly blessed…nothing can stop us now…

    Everyone running around with their ‘combat” shotguns, little cammie outfits and other tactical gear..sold to all the wannabees…thinking that some how just looking the part makes it so.
    Then we have the Survivalist hype…next the Constituional scholars quoting Jefferson and Washington…or those thinking we live in a closed “nazi” type scenario….my God…what a bunch of half baked lunatics and pathetic losers…
    I am beginning to wonder why i spent so many years going in harms way for this country, if this is what I am left with.

  • wsp1

    Try this ….FBI stats…over 28% of police shootings were police shooting themselves…point? Our trained police continually have mishaps etc. yet, All the experts here are so certain of their “untested” capablities,and putting forth their mantra of training and tactical advice… 99% of which is wrong, continue on is blessed ignorance, safe in the certainty they somehow have it all right.

    It amazes me how many experts are on here…we are truly blessed…nothing can stop us now…

    Everyone running around with their ‘combat” shotguns, little cammie outfits and other tactical gear..sold to all the wannabees…thinking that some how just looking the part makes it so.
    Then we have the Survivalist hype…next the Constituional scholars quoting Jefferson and Washington…or those thinking we live in a closed “nazi” type scenario….my God…what a bunch of half baked lunatics and pathetic losers…
    I am beginning to wonder why i spent so many years going in harms way for this country, if this is what I am left with.

  • wsp1

    Try this JD….bad guys come in pairs…first one through the safe zone takes it bad..goes down like a sack of Sh$#@#$…second guy jumps up and immediatley moves to counter the threat, and recover his downed partner…etc etc etc…please…wrong!!

    When the first one drops the second one is gone faster than a NY minute….wake up..do you think BG #2 is going to advance through the withering fire to save his honor and contiune the mission…NO, No NO!

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    Here’s an idea, how about being nice and civil and offering advice NICELY instead of being a jack ass and insulting everybody. If you were /are military, guess what….we were/are your employer.

  • wsp1

    You do not need rds..you need a light and you need practice…5 rds ins more than enough…unless you are attacked by a horde…than you are dead anyway….in home invasion etc…genrally 1…2 at most…maybe three…5 rds…do the math…i guarantee when # 1, then #2 go down …#3 is going someplace else…

  • http://twitter.com/jdglock JD Glock

    I would suggest you are absolutely correct. But I always want the “withering fire” available. Let me add that I don’t stop with one shot – I have trained for a 3-shot series, then more as needed. I might be accused of over-reacting, or not understanding tactics like I believe you do, and I don’t wear camo clothes, but I won’t play around with this stuff like some cowboy – we’re going to take care of business.

  • wsp1

    #1. actually you…were not my employer…Uncle Sam was, not the military..which I also served in….you are one of X hundreds of millions in the land…you have no say and no input into what transpires in this type of world…get over it. it is what it is.
    #2. A bit of sarcasm is somtimes neede to get people to listen…becasue so many know it all…and those of us who do know…cringe when we see the constant flow of poor information, bad advice of wannabee bull that is spewed out through these types of blogs etc….sorry…it gets old.
    #3..If it appears I ‘attacked” you personally…then i regret that…it was not my intent….sorry.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • Jamie Schnider

    Have you been paying attention to what the BATF has attempted with law-abiding FFL dealers in the southern border states?? Perhaps instead of trying to show everyone your superior intellect, maybe you could take a moment to reflect on just how serious the situation is. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize how much change is occurring as a direct result of the underhandedness of our federal government. We are in a great deal of trouble. I, for one, am not laughing.

  • JingoJohn

    JD says” “…I don’t “rack” the gun…”
    Soooo you keep ‘one in the snout’ with the firing pin spring compressed IN YOUR HOME…. for maybe YEARS at a time?

    NOBODY just jacks their firearm for sound effects.
    When my 870 chambers a rd, from safe storage condition, it is pretty difficult to silence.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    Once in a while, sarcasm works, but I think to most you’re coming off as arrogant and therefore you’re being tuned out. I think you have alot to offer but it’s falling on deaf ears. I’ve never served and never had to level a weapon at someone. God willing, I never will. With that said. My 3 kids rooms are on opposite end of my house than my room, far from ideal. If someone comes in my house, I will have to make my way to them, to not is not an option. Rather than calling people like me a “rambo” or “couch commando” how about some suggestions on how to do that safely as possible or pointing someone like me in the proper direction for training or advice on how to practice that. Just my opinion….might even be worth what you paid for it.

  • http://twitter.com/jdglock JD Glock

    Yeah, there are stresses in the gun but I shoot it regularly and maintain with care – and if it fails, I go to the G21 (also with a round chambered). Also, I live alone, so don’t have a “storage” problem – it’s right beside me all night, cozy :>)

  • wsp1

    Yes, however…the three shot scenario is not designed for shotguns.. the original three shot scenario was devised to allow spec ops types and police to fire two center mass hits, then access..it was part of the original FTS or failure to stop drills..the third round being an ocular cranial shot…in a perfect scenario designed to penetrate the left obital lobe…closest path to the brain. It was often employed with a foot technique called the Mozambique shuffle…designed by the Brits and Rhodesain SAS. The Brits developed and utilized the original double tap scenario to give them adequate stopping power when using their P35 9mm…and the target was actually the terminal t …specfically the mouth to chin area…because the shot would encounter less resitance, therefore minimizing deflection but also because it was a straight path to the medullah oblongata, or base of the skull…the brain ctr nervous system…which provided immediate incapacity and death.

  • JingoJohn

    Hate to break it to you, well on second thought, no, I don’t hate to be the one to tell you. There ARE some experts here on many of the HE threads.

    On this thread, some advise caution and discretion. Read my post(s) and the foot noted essay.
    Get back to me with your thus informed opinion.

    BTW, my ONE (1) armed encounter is 100% higher than MOST cops ever encounter in a 20 year career.

    THIRD thought. ANY and ALL employees of ANY government are employees OF THE CITIZENS!
    “…get over it. it is what it is….”
    Quote from some GESTAPO type arrogant pig feeding at the public trough.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • charlesjneilsonmd

    All of this talk about fretting over the BATF getting search warrants and then coming to your home and seizing your firearms has not yet included a consensus of opinion from staunch 2nd Amendment supporters as to exactly what our response should be. Is it to be a slow legal response put on by the NRA? Or demonstrations locally and/or nationally by NRA, Tea Party, GOA, etc? Or should there be a preparation already thought out by Militia groups, patriotic cells, and any willing citizen (such as from the “3 Percenters” who liken themselves to the actual Sons of Liberty)? Vietnam vets have certainly seen how the Viet Cong used terrorism against pro-government officers and politicians throughout Vietnam. If we have a government that uses the law against its citizens while breaking the law for its own anti-gun purposes (eg Supreme Court decisions confirming the 2nd Amendment as pertaining to individuals, etc.), then we will have a reason to invoke our Declaration of Independence once again. Since the 2nd Amendment serves as an abstract check and balance against such tyranny, it only follows that an abstract plan needs to be formulated before government forces start gun confiscation.

  • wsp1

    Fine…but I take exception to the cavalier and often “stupid” manner in which many posters talk about killing and firarms handling etc…they will make it easy for Obama and others to take away our 2nd amendment rights…like it or not…most of the educated and free world do not think this type of dialogue is a good thing.

  • JingoJohn

    Your heart is in the right place! Please read my posts and the foot noted essay with acompaning comments.
    I ALWAYS advise caution before that FATEFUL trigger squeze.

  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    …and I totally agree with you. That’s why I’m saying correct them, educate them. Just remember, when you address someone “aggressively” their first response will be to get all butt hurt and defensive. If you address them in a “civil” tone they may actually listen. Obviously, there are those that may need their skulls cracked a little, but I try to save those for “personal messages.”

  • wsp1

    You need to develop a working scenario for your children, depending on their age etc. They need to be able to secure themselves, ie., lock on the door…with a ‘strut” type device in side so it can not be kicked open, and a means of egress..through the window too. You may not be able to be there in time, and they need to understand the drill….similar to a ‘fire drill”. You can not help your children or your wife if you charge blindly through the house etc exposing yourself to fire and die.
    Secondly, most home invasion are not aimed at children, they have either an intent on robbery, or they are looking for “payback”…drugs, insult from the bar, owe them money etc…
    Third..if your wife is a willing partner….drill together…make it a family affair. Determine who stays put, who calls 911, who goes for the children…what routes you take, recognition signals, distress terms, so you can tell if one of you is being held against their will etc.
    Fourth…children should not…repeat should not be given firearms ever..it is a sure way to get hem killed…however, something like pepper spray can buy precious minutes and is not lethal if they screw up and hit each other etc….it happens.

    just a few thoughts

  • wsp1

    correct…most police never use their weapon..

  • JingoJohn

    Did you leave out any ALPHABET SOUP of quasi GESTAPO like organizations? There MUST be one or two organizations you did not work for?

    Wanna bet $500,000 on whether you or I have fired the most rounds in our lives?

  • Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot_One

    Thanks, kids are 10, 7, and 4, so yea, no guns for them. It just occurred to me that while my 80 lb. yellow lab is not a vicious guard dog, I think she would get protective, seen her get down right pissed when some people come to the door. (raised a flag for me). Probably let her go in the house first. Just a thought.

  • JingoJohn

    I believe you did do ‘clearings’. Thank you for taking the risk I did not have to do.
    So how many times in a 20 year career do MOST Cops ‘draw down’ on a person? ZERO.
    MOST law enforcement does NOT entail ANY use of firearms whatsoever except at the range for training.

  • wsp1

    I am not trying to be disrespectful…but your answers really frost my butt…and here is why? Experts…right…not from what I’ve seen…what makes you an expert?…read alot, went to a training course?spent itme in the service, were a or are a cop? great. I have no time for rhetoric or fools…if you really think we work for you…you are in serious need of help. When your so called expertise includes black ops in several nations with real targets and real wins and losses. let me know…until then…keep it to yourself. people like you actually think there are unsolved murders…yeah right. people like me know better. You think Jason Bourne was a movie character…I know him as part of a team that takes care of issues the USA would rather not have public.
    It is not Gestapo…it is reality. Governments do not work 100% in the light of day…they can not function effectively and maintain plausible deniability. Idiotic comments like yours are for fools..i suppose you think all clandestine activities, techniques and targets should be told to you too…please…stop with the amateur stuff….. people like you have no idea what a real gestapo is…its people like me that keep you from being a victim of them.

  • wsp1

    charles…let me tell you a story…you can check it on Google

    Begininng in 66.—through 75 during the Vietnam conflict the North Vietnamese govt tried unsuccessfully to introduce an assisination and murder campaign that targeted community leaders, politicians, teachers, judges etc in the South Vietnames govt/community. It was very ruthless and was working. Within the CIA, there is the NCS..National Cladestine Service, within that SOG…Special Activites Group.( differnt from MACV-SOG)..within that SAD…Special Activities Division…within that three seperate branches, Analysis, Logistics,Special Programs (including Psy Ops)…out of this group came a program called Phoenix…I know..I was there (72)…at the end in 75, unbeknown to the rest of the world….as it should be…congressional hearings were being held…to determine how this program was initated, funded and run and managed to kill 86,000 suspected NV spies, saboteurs, combatants etc…SOP, stand procedure was to interrogate a captured NVA or Cong…lead them through a village with their head covered…and they would give a predetermined signal..scratch their ear, cough etc when passing a suspect NVA agent etc. Then we would return that evening…knock on the door ..and shoot them in the head when they answered, no due process ,no questions, no accusations…just pop.pop..silenced High Std..done deal….soon word got out…the VC and NVA started cutting back on their terror activities..point is…when you start using these type of tactics..it does not take the other side long to figure out how to use them too….not good.

    All of you conspiracy and survival types that think we are all going to be fighting in the streets need to undersatnd that is a very,very, very remote possibilty…you would be better served working through your issues using the laws, processes and aother means we as a free nation provide,

  • wsp1

    any dog is good, they make noise, they alert you , they are a distration to the BG’s…

  • JingoJohn

    Rogue agent (AKA wsp1) says: “……if you really think we work for you…you are in serious need of help. …”

    FYI Rogue agent (AKA wsp1) THIS is EXACTLY why the Constitution was written AND why the CITIZENS ARE NOW FORMING GROUPS LIKE THE T.E.A. party and armed malitia!

    MOST of us would rather take our chances with REAL TERRORISTS than governments which EMPLOYEE people like you.

    Your quoted so-called “thinking” is the stuff of every ROGUE PIG FEEDING AT THE PUBLIC EXPENSE.

    If you are serious, and not just blowing bravado for this thread…
    PLEASE, go eat your side arm!!!!!!!!!!

    We should have gun control FOR GOVERNMENTS!
    Citizens with NO SECOND AMMENDMENT should disarm their governments.

    TURKEY KILLED 1.5 million CITIZENS.

    SOVIET UNION KILLED 20 million CITIZENS.

    NAZI (National SOCIALIST)
    KILLED 20 million CITIZENS.

    CHINA (Nationalist) KILLED 10 million CITIZENS.

    CHINA (Communist) KILLED 35 million CITIZENS.

    GUATEMALA KILLED 200,000 CITIZENS.

    UGANDA KILLED 300,000 CITIZENS.

    CAMBODIA KILLED 2 million CITIZENS.

    RWANDA KILLED 1 MILLION CITIZENS.

    Google: “DEATH by GUN CONTROL”

  • JingoJohn

    THIS DESERVES A DISTINCT POST in addition to a reply to “wsp1″:

    wsp1 says: “……if you really think we work for you…you are in serious need of help. …”

    FYI Rogue agent (AKA wsp1) THIS is EXACTLY why the Constitution was written AND why the CITIZENS ARE NOW FORMING GROUPS LIKE THE T.E.A. party and armed malitia!

    MOST of us would rather take our chances with REAL TERRORISTS than governments which EMPLOYEE people like you.

    Your quoted so-called “thinking” is the stuff of every ROGUE PIG FEEDING AT THE PUBLIC EXPENSE.

    If you are serious, and not just blowing bravado for this thread…
    PLEASE, go eat your side arm!!!!!!!!!!

    We should have gun control FOR GOVERNMENTS!
    Citizens in countries with NO SECOND AMMENDMENT should disarm their governments.

    TURKEY KILLED 1.5 million CITIZENS.

    SOVIET UNION KILLED 20 million CITIZENS.

    NAZI (National SOCIALIST)
    KILLED 20 million CITIZENS.

    CHINA (Nationalist) KILLED 10 million CITIZENS.

    CHINA (Communist) KILLED 35 million CITIZENS.

    GUATEMALA KILLED 200,000 CITIZENS.

    UGANDA KILLED 300,000 CITIZENS.

    CAMBODIA KILLED 2 million CITIZENS.

    RWANDA KILLED 1 MILLION CITIZENS.

    Google: “DEATH by GUN CONTROL”

  • wsp1

    No contest ..you can fire what you want…what to compare kills….
    get over it Jingo…not my fault you didn’t make the cut…you can not compare in anyway to my experience…few can…and I know most of them. It is a very small world…you are in or youare an asset and useed as such. All the contractor groups from Blackwater to PSS abd others…where do you think they all came from….do you think the govt really hands out missions to anyone that asks….

    You have no idea how the structure is set up, how they recruit, where they draw people from…these are not rambos, they are highly educated, multiple degree types, usually from high end or ivy league schools. There are over 45 seperate agencies within the govt from Military, to State, to Govt specific one…try Defense Exec Security DES, Defense Intelligence Agency DIA, Defense Executive Directorate DED,Dept of Defense DOD, Military Intelligence, State Dept Intelligence, NSA, OEI, office of Electronic Intelligence….they change every few years..on purpose…they fall under diffeernt budgets and reporting structures..on purpose…they do not come to the surface…on purpose,…there are many more …even i do not know them all,…on purpose…

    you can be mad, pissed …whateveryou feel…but..it is what it is…you might try something knew…listening and learning.

  • wsp1

    Do you have a point…No, I did not think so…continual ranting and pissing into the wind is very unproductive. The govt has been running this nation woth support from amny people for a good number of years now. All the ranting form you and groups like you have come to naught…why…becasue ther is no validity or truth in your words…the govt is not perfect..never has been…never will be…because there are people involved and people sometimes screw up…but for the most part ..there are many dedicated and motivated people trying to keep this country number one…and free…while people like yo continually fret about wether or not you “know” everything…not realizing that even if you did…it would not matter. that is what you do not like…you do not want to be told you do not matter…but, you can alwaays sign up, stand a watch…get into the game…or you can keep doing what your doing….nothing.

  • wclardy

    Mr. Johnson,

    Overall, you wrote an excellent primer on the mechanical aspects of using a shotgun for home security (the legal repercussions are something vastly more complex). There are a couple of points I’d like to add:

    1) One oft-overlooked counterpoint to the intimidation factor credited to pump shotguns is the tendency to short-stroke the pump when excited. Needless to say, the shotgun wielder is likely to become even more excited when discovering that pulling the trigger produces only a “Click!”

    2) Think about electro-optical sights. Those holographic “red dot” sights make effective aiming much, much more doable by an excited amateur. An inexpensive laser provides the same benefit, but be sure to at least spend enough for a usable pressure switch — eye injuries are enough of a danger without waving a lit laser all over a darkened house.

    Lastly, I would recommend adding Mossberg’s SA-20 shotgun to your list of effective tools. As a 20-gauge semi-auto, it offers all the benefits you cite for the Remington 11-87 with an MSRP that is $300 lower (leaves more money for ammo and range time). The Tactical model comes with the basic ooh-rah accoutrements (extended mag, shorter barrel, picatinny rail — for mounting a good ooh-rah sight) and the Bantam model offers a 13-inch pull length (important for women, who tend to be much more altitudinally challenged).

  • jerryg785

    What is SOG? And NCS? Testing your memory!

  • jerryg785

    What is SOG? And NCS? Testing your memory!

  • Not_in_Denial

    So, I take it that we are to roll over and go belly up without resistance? That sounds like a great formula for the complete takeover of this country. Proper warrants? Are those the ones they’ve used to break down doors at wrong addresses too? Not long ago they did just that and ended up with one dead and one wounded, not the homeowner, who had shotguns in every room for breakins. Many times the ‘warrant’ serving is with a battering ram and guys in black. This country belongs to ‘We’ the people, and we have a right to expect to be treated that way. Is it any wonder that the great SPLC has added lots of new people and groups to their list of threats? If this is the kind of attitude we should have then we deserve to lose this country to jackboot thugs, just as they did in Nazi Germany.

  • scaatylobo

    Sorry but that is incorrect,I was LEO in small city and was involved in a few shootings [ not my rounds ] and did hundreds of ‘felony’ stops and takedowns.
    I was AIMING my firearm at many perps per year.

    AND it was a S&W 4″ .38 special that I started with.

    Left using an M-4 and a S&W M&P .40 and a Taser and on occassion a Rem 12 bore.

  • scaatylobo

    Unless your told by radio “be advised,no backup”.

    And then you man up and do it alone = yes its ‘taste your butthole in your throat’ day.

  • Not_in_Denial

    What will have some bearing is are there any patriots left? If not then the spiral downward will continue. As I recall there was a survey taken of Marines asking if they were directed to confiscate weapons from citizens if they would resort to deadly force against those citizens to carry out their mission. The percentage was surprisingly high. Bull about the founders? Are you a d*mn constitutional scholar? It doesn’t take a ‘scholar’ or a truth twisting attorney to interpret what was plainly written in the founding documents or the Federalist papers. What has bearing is the fact that you appear to advocate total submission.

  • wsp1

    get electronic hearing protection, eye protection..flying debris is a real threat….also get a vest…
    optics ae OK…as long as you check them reg for good batteries and zero etc….a dead optic sight is useless…they can get banged around easy to…you always need back up sights.
    You need a light and you need to know how to use it…lasers are useless…you get target fixated watching the little red/green beam jump around. and it shows everyone exactly where you are….not good…use a good low center holograph if you must…but at indooor ranges…if you can not hit without one….perhaps you need to use a greande…only kidding.

    Do not depend on technology…murphys law will prevail…depend on basic, sound arms,tools and techniques with substantial amounts of practice…you are beter off practicing with a double, learning to shoot and load quickly then spending alot of time and energy learning to properly rack a shotgun and go through multiple clearing routines for FTF,FTE etc…this is real life…this is not clearing a home in occupied territory in a hostile area where anything goes…basics are best unless you plan to spend hundreds to thousands of hours practicing. Do not be fooled into thinking you need to be a Spec Ops warrior or SWAT team member…you don’t

    I used to ask people about the double I have in a room …and they all had their opinions etc…everytime i asked one of them to try it by standing in front of it..they declined…go figure..

  • wsp1

    did you feel any differnt with the 38 or the 40…just curious.
    having used them all…I found little difference in the end result if ai did my part.

  • JingoJohn

    wsp1 AKA ROGUE AGENT writes: “…Jason Bourne..I know him as part of a team…”
    Great! I knew him as a college prof at a small college in the mountains of Colorado. He tried to recuit me….HAHHAAH
    The books say NE seabord, but he was in Colorado.

    Guys in Phoenix? I did home loans and other financing for several of them. Would you like their CURRENT SSN’s, cover businesses/occupations, phone numbers and home addresses posted here?
    I will match you name for name…if you are as irrational as your other posts indicate.

    BTW, wanna bet $500,000 on 1500 and 2000 meter accuracy? You ducked the bet on total rds fired.

  • wsp1

    SOG is originally Studies and Observation Group…it then morphed into Special Operations Group…there is more than one…the MACV SOG was a nam contingent…the other is part of NCS…the CIA is a holdogn company structure..with many businesses under it…the NCS or National Clandestine Services is one such section.

  • jerryg785

    Good answer! I was in SOG, so just testing you! Most folks say SOG is Special Operation Group, or some other crap. You did very well. Thanks a lot, Jerry

  • scaatylobo

    The .38 held 6 rounds – PERIOD.

    And we carried another 12 in LOOPS on the belt [ speed loaders were not allowed when I got on in 1982 ]

    I got into the habit of carrying a BOB against dept policy.

    And when my name was given as a target by the crack dealers [ it was a virus ] I was actually young and crazy enough to be honored,BUT the “tools” that I carried were REALLY against dept policy = LOL.

    So the 9 MM and then the .40 was a relief as I had a ‘bit’ more firepower that was dept policy and not against R&R’s [ rules & regulations ].

    I left carrying a BUG in the same caliber [ Glock 27 ] and a pocket gun [ Keltec 380 ] too along with the dept gun,no I never felt overgunned.

    Oh and I had the M-4 carbine and the Taser along at all times.

    On side jobs I went a ‘bit’ overboard,as it was my butt and I was alone.

  • wsp1

    jerrryg….when and where…I spent time in 72…part of Phoenix…

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QCIPEBUADASSTUNNZT2D3Y672Y Westy

    Some of us would rather go out on a gurney than give up our guns. They are just another intruder. I will keep them out as long as I can.

  • JingoJohn

    How could you POSSIBLY miss the point?

    wsp1 says: “……if you really think we work for you…you are in serious need of help. …”

    FYI Rogue agent (AKA wsp1) THIS is EXACTLY why the Constitution was written AND why the CITIZENS ARE NOW FORMING GROUPS LIKE THE T.E.A. party and armed malitia!
    AGAIN, How could you POSSIBLY miss the point?

    ROGUE aka wsp1 further states “…people trying to keep this country number one…and free…”
    Sooooooo, those people don’t work for the CITIZENS? If not, they, by definition, MUST be ROGUES also.

    WAKE UP! you work for we CITIZENS!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QCIPEBUADASSTUNNZT2D3Y672Y Westy

    BS to you buddy. You will be amongst the first of the new found slave in the socialistic one world government. God have mercy on your sole.

  • wsp1

    what are you ranting about?.The refernce to J Bourne was an anology …a pseudo examole etc…get it?…..Phoenix ….not the city…Phoenix is a program …run through SAD during the Vietnam war…you really need to get over it… you do not know squat…and your antics and rantings prove it. You would not know any real members of the Phoenix team…because real ones would not tell you or anyone else without clearance and recognition protocol…so get over it. I’ve heard from hundreds of pseduo spooks, operatives, specialists etc…gee, it seems everybody was one…etc….just like you…wow.

    I have no ideea how many rounds I have fired over a 20 yr career and also as a private citizen…thousands upon thousands…so what ..who cares…1500/2000 meters for what?…I am qualified to 800 meters…that’s it…difference between me and you…I have actually used it.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QCIPEBUADASSTUNNZT2D3Y672Y Westy

    Give specifics if you are going to disagree.

  • wsp1

    No jerk…we do not work for “the citizens”…alas perhaps if you had paid more attention in school…the electoral process…not a true democracy puts people in place..then again…many are appointed and selected withoout being voted in…so, I am sorry to burst your bubble…but keep ranting…we do not work for you…we work for people who have been goven the authority and autonamy legally through authorized process of govt. Thye may in some remote form ….going down throughthe various agincies, to some oversight committee etc eventuall reort out to a comm. of Senators or Congresssman(people) that may represent people in various states and districts…but in the end…they vote as they determine best. they are not…repeat not obligated to vote the way you want or think. You really need to go back to school. You did go to school…right/

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_CMP66GXBEDD6FG2Q3LYTRLDYWI Bandit

    How many of you have been in an in home shooting. I for one have and the 357mag that I used did a very nice job the rounds stayed right where they belonged and that was in the intruders chest. The shot gun is very good for what it was designed for, I have used both pistol and shotgun and both times at a range of less than 3 yards and every time the bad guy went to the morgue. Every time I used the shotgun it was loaded with o pellets and did a great job. Either way pistol or shotgun you have to know what you are doing, and if you freeze up well that’s your problem. Personally I have sent 5 bad guys to hell the last being a 16 year old with a Colt 45 shot him 4 times with a 9mmloaded with black talon. But in close quarters the shotgun beats them all..

    You have to decide for your self what type of gun you want for home defense with me I like both pistol and shotgun.

  • wsp1

    People like me always love people like you…they are so easy to take down…..

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QCIPEBUADASSTUNNZT2D3Y672Y Westy

    The only reason Japan gave for not invading the USA mainland was the private citizen being armed factor. Too many guns behind every door stopped them, not our governments ability to stop them.

    We should be more like Switzerland where every home has a gun for defense. They have the lowest crime rate an a government that understands the value of having an armed citizenry.

  • wsp1

    what is it you are doing or where do you reside that requires you to shoot so many people as a civilian?

  • charlesjneilsonmd

    InreplytoWSP1: I appreciate your input regarding examples of our own government’s use of illegal and inhumanitarian actions such as the CIA’s Operation Phoenix. I see where they “neutralized” 81,740 Vietnamese that they considered Viet Cong/NVA supporters (by detaining, imprisoning, killing) Of these, they killed 26,369 (after the NVA/VietCong killed 6,000 politicians and wounded 15,000 leaders, hamlet chiefs, etc.) Such an effective program still met up with strong Congressional opposition leading up to our current outlawing of political assassination. Certainly, if American citizens resort to political assassination in retaliation to government fiat to disarm us while legal due process is ineffective, then it will be a dangerous scenario brought on by our own government’s choice. Those who signed the Declaration of Independence did not let such danger intimidate them. My point is really what would you and I (and all other patriots) do after hearing that widespread gun confiscation is ongoing? There will be a point at which ongoing confiscation will lead to combustion. I do not think an operation comparable to Phoenix will intimidate patriots at that point.

  • wsp1

    westy/Not in Denial

    are you for real…scenarios of mad max…you defending the rights of the common man…please…I understand the constitution, and associated documents better than you ever will. It has no bearing…we are talking reality.When it happens no one will be waving the Declaration iof Independece, Bill of Rights , federalist Papers or comments from Jefferson, Washinton or Adams…get it. I understand what force will be brought to bear and how…no one said giving in is the answer..what i said is all the hype, tough talk and rambo crap from you and others means nothing…got it. if they want you taken out..it will happen…simple as that. Marines take an oath..i know I was a marine officer 71-73…they will defend against all ..external and internal…get it…that means you….
    I spent a life time defending our nations…not bitching about it like you two…why don’t you satnd up and be counted and work through the legal, constitutional means granted to you…instead of mouthing off anonomously on a blog that means nothing?…more tough guys….isn’t is great…

  • JingoJohn

    Do I need to explain this to you: “HAHHAAH” ?
    In addition, your comments were NOT written as you now state..”…an anology …a pseudo examole…” (Nor spelled correctly)

    WAKE UP/WISE UP to the FACT that any and ALL government employees work for and on behalf of the CITIZENS!

    I left out this word: “OPERATION” before the word ‘Phoenix’. I thought if you had been there and done that you would impute the word.

    FACT: I did home loans and other financing for several guys who were in that operation. Would you like their CURRENT SSN’s, cover businesses/occupations, phone numbers and home addresses posted here?
    I will match you name for name…if you are as irrational as your other posts indicate.

    FACT: I did home loans for hundreds of persons with top leve security clearances because of my position, experience, discreation, previous security clearance, proven loyalty and patriotism.

    Would you like their CURRENT SSN’s, cover businesses/occupations, phone numbers and home addresses posted here?

    I will match you name for name…if you are as irrational as your other posts indicate.

    BTW, I have averaged about 24,000 rds /y of ‘big bore’ for the last 65 years and maybe 2,000 of side arm.

  • wsp1

    You will undoubtedly die quickly and poorly…people like you always do. Tough talk means little…

  • crowvet4

    Who ever these 2nd ammednment, self conscious ATF members are I havn’t heard any of them speak up over the out right abuse of their position except for the Agents involved in the “Walking Gun” fieasco.

  • wsp1

    you use Patriot freely…I know better…many will fold at the first sign of someone kickin their buttt…others will run…the rest…they will jsut die…circumstances are vastly differnt now. The govt ability to introduce force and use it effectively is quite good. Many aspect of which are not public knowledge. People thinking that they are going to be fighting in the strrets need to get a grip…the only thing they will be fihgting is each other when the infrastructure collapses…in this type of scenario,..the govt holds all the cards…if you attacked me…you would feel the full force of retribution…family,friends in manners you can’t even contemplate.. etc….you would not like it. why do people honestly think that they can overcome the full force and resources of the govt….sure…you’ll fire a few rounds…then die. Look at Libya…without intervention..ole Momar would have been done by now…done killing all the opposition….this is not the movies…it is real life…you need to live it and breathe it to know how it works…and most have no experience etc doing that….I fear for all of us when people actually think that an armed response is effective….it makes you feel good…but the outcome is never in doubt.

  • JingoJohn

    Please re read my post. I think you missed this part, the first line BTW
    ‘…I believe you did do ‘clearings’. Thank you for taking the risk I did not have to do…”

  • crowvet4

    What are you saying ????
    Don’t resist no matter the situation ????. You sound like those that gave into Hitler. I would rather hear Jefferson quotes than you. Your kind make good Obummer supporters.

  • wsp1

    Scatty….good to see you used you head…regulations are great…having a BUG etc is better…glad to see you made it.

  • JingoJohn

    WAKE UP/WISE UP to the FACT that any and ALL government employees work for and on behalf of the CITIZENS!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_G3G3REVQXCIOEI2T3STXM5RPEY Rob

    I always thought ATF, Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. All three are legal substances. Interesting.

    Good article.

    My 12 bore over/under with 20 inch barrels is my home defense long gun. The only downside is not much ammo capacity. As far as the close range spread of buckshot if you have interchangeable chokes using a cylinder choke seems to help. Also pattern different brands of buck shot. Out of my gun and choke combination the Remington buck spreads more and patterns much better than Federal buck. Possibly has something to do with the wad design too. I noticed with the Federal wad it punches right through the cardboard target like a slug hole and sometimes doesn’t release the pellets evenly. Might be good at long range for deer hunting but probably wasn’t designed for home defense. Always good to pattern though or you never know what you’ve got.

    Also one thing that wasn’t mentioned about the old story with the sound of a pump gun racking to scare someone away… if someone breaks into your house in the dark they don’t know the layout most likely or where you are located. As soon as you rack that slide they know right where you are. You’ve just given your position away.

  • JingoJohn

    ROGUE AGENT aka wsp1 CAN’T fathom the following which I have posted to him/her several times.
    “…WAKE UP/WISE UP to the FACT that any and ALL government employees work for and on behalf of the CITIZENS!…”

  • wsp1

    crowvetr…another useless rant..please…i am saying that there are better ways. use your head….open confrontational armed resistance…gets you killed…and people like you with a mouth go first…happens all the time…this bull sh@## about who works for who is all sematical crap that noone with any brains pays any attention too. You want ot win…you need to be smart…you need to understand where the weakness is…you need to plan, execute and have the means etc to take advantage immediately of any small success…
    Ever spend any time in covert/black bag ops…no…did not think so…perhaps some Sun Tzu or Clausewitz?… You never fight on the other guys terms…and you and the others ranting on here ..well…lets just say…If I was in in charge…you are the kind I would hope i was up against.

  • wsp1

    Your ignorance is boring…i have fathomed your ranting from the beginning…there is no point in trying to explain how insignificant you are…sorry.

  • JingoJohn

    GREAT post to JUSTIFY the SECOND AMENDMENT! The 1st, 3rd, 4th, …..10th and others! We CITIZENS need to keep the gov in a box! (A tighter box than we have recently!)

    THANK YOU for your VERY CLEAR illustration as to why we need to FIGHT for our beloved Constitution at every opportunity!

    BTW, do the Libyan citizens have G*D given, CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED rights?

    Hmmmmmm, do they?

    We ALL await your reply with held breath

  • crowvet4

    Why don’t you try a positive approach to this instead of profaning those that want to defend their homes. With your superior training and practical application of that training I would think that you would feel better about your self by helping those that don’t have your expertise by giving helpful information. I would think that if you did some checking that this country is well trained in weapon handling. The fact is your not the only trained combatent. There are alot of civilians that are as proficient as you.
    I appreciate your willing to serve . Thank you
    Combat vet.

  • wsp1

    big bore…for what purpose?…who you trying to impress….

    I avg about 5000 rds of .22, about 500 .308, and about 2500 .223., and 3000 9mm, and 2000.45 , 500 .38. I load for the ,308..that is it…and various amount of other rounds…predominantly Eastern Bloc…7.62×39, 7.62×54, 9×18 etc…a few other odds and ends but not in significant quantity.

    FACT: I did home loans and other financing for several guys who were in that operation. Would you like their CURRENT SSN’s, cover businesses/occupations, phone numbers and home addresses posted here?
    I will match you name for name…if you are as irrational as your other posts indicate.

    if that is the real case…then these people would be in jail..and I would be glad to help do that…

  • JingoJohn

    UNFORTUNATELY, all of humanity is infested with some percentage of “people” like wsp1.
    Hitler put them in the GESTAPO.
    E. Germany put them in the STASI
    Mao put them in the Red Brigades
    other totaliarians have put them in other groups of thugs.

    googl/bing “DEATH by GUN CONTROL”

  • wsp1

    last time I checked…God did not give us our rights….

    its not about the Constitution…there is nothing to fight about…only in your delusional reality do you see enemies everywhere….typical.

  • wsp1

    some of us take oaths and honor seriously….

  • JingoJohn

    Interesting! VERY INTERESTING!

    wsp1 does not counter one premise or argument I have advanced.
    However, he/she calls me ignorant and a jerk.

    I can only believe THAT is what all OUR EMPLOYEES think of we CITIZENS.

    Perhaps, we citizens are chumps and fools to continue such OUTRAGEOUS compensation for “people” who think like that about us?

    ANYTHING of substance to say wsp1 ??????

  • Charles1Martel

    I guess you don’t know what happened in new Orleans.

  • wsp1

    you have no premise…you have no argument…sorry…

    fools like you populate the net with your ranting and continuos mouthing and bashing of the govt etc., with nothing to offer…oh my…we have a constituion, we have rights, the govt is all crooked, only we know what is right…pathetic…you are just pathetic…why do you not just face up to it..you are insignificant in the overall scheme of things. You provide little or no value…you input is flawed and useless, your rhetoric is the ranting of an idiot…thinking they have something important to say and not realizing no one is listening…don’t you get it…all this crap you put forth about rights, the govt, the constitution…you do not have a clue…you do not know what it means, what it stands for, how to interpret it, nor how to apply it with in proper context etc….you just flail about aimlessly providing entertainment to everyone else laughing at the foolishness…enough of your antics…go sit in front of the mirror and continue your rant…its the only audience that cares wht you have to say.

  • JingoJohn

    Don’t tell me! Let me guess!
    YOU “think” the government gave us our rights.
    That would be congruous with your other so-called “thinking”.

    RECOMMENDED reading…. the first few paras of our FOUNDING DOCUMENTS!

    BTW, ‘big bore’ is high-power .30+. ALL real shooters know that.

  • wsp1

    well….anything .30 is not big to those who use it wether .308 or .300 win mag……once you jump to a .338L…then you are getting big….I figured as much. And you say you shoot 24,000 rds annually…which is 461 a week…right….

  • another_engineer

    Shotguns are in fact a horrible home defense weapon. Never use a long gun in close quarters, too easy to have it taken away from you by an intruder grabbing the barrel as you roam down dark hallways. The best home defense is a snub nosed .38. Enough stopping power to put someone down, small enough it can’t be grabbed off you and not powerful enough to pound through multiple walls.

    even Massad Ayoob agrees with me.

  • wsp1

    Once again…no point…reference to God in documents does not mean that God gave us anything pertaining to specific rights. It means that within a society of the time, they recognized a greater power that they felt gave unalienable rights …general very general, to all of mankind….kind of like saying the ten commandemnts gave us our rights etc….once again…an idiot like you does not know how to use the information provided…

  • wsp1

    uh huh…and Massad Ayob recommends you wandering around …your home in the dark, clearing rooms etc with a .38?…I do not think so….this is not good information to share. You create scenarios that get people killed.

  • another_engineer

    Read sometime, you will learn. Plus it makes perfect sense. I’m in your house waiting to pounce and you come around a corner with 20+ inches of barrel that I can grab… common sense boy, common sense.

    Get over the bravado of * Bang* and use your head. And yes, Ayoob did actually say the .38 snug was the best in that situation.

  • wsp1

    you are an as@#$$#…meaning no disrespect…want me to tell you how it really works…I come down the hall..I cut the pie and evaluate the scene..if I even think for an instance soemone is in the house…i leave..or if I have more motivation..like I’m being paid..then i put two rounds of steel buck through the corner to take you out..then proceed to kill the rest of your family…amateurs need to listen and learn…you do not go through your home looking for the bad guy…the pro will kill you every time…fact…end of story. Read the rest of my posts…you might learn something real….

  • another_engineer

    explain to me why the Navy Seals use the MP5A short with 9mm rounds then when they are doing house to house sweeps.
    Put your soldier of fortune magazine down and think.

  • wsp1

    Massad was a Cop and thinks like a cop….in the real world those rules do not apply…you never leave your safe area, your killing zone…you call 911..you wait…you act when required…wandering around in the dark in your house is a recipe for disaster…BG’s have listening enhancement, night vision, ssuppressed weapons etc…sometimes even flashbangs etc…
    only a fool leaves a solid defensive position….

  • wclardy

    another_engineer, your point about 20 inches of barrel is why I was advising a fellow looking for a home-defense shotgun to get one with a buttstock instead of a pistol grip, and to practice buttstroking while someone is gripping the barrel. And that’s for when you forget (or are unable) to always approach a corner or doorway from the opposite side of the hall/room.

    Regardless of Ayoob’s commentary, I will still recommend a two-handed weapon for life-or-death shooting because it is easier to hold on to and easier to aim effectively.

  • another_engineer

    Masaad also happens to train other cops and military. I would tend to think he knows what he’s talking about.

  • wsp1

    controllability..and no need to worry about collateral damage…the MP5 comes in several conf set specifically for the task at hand…it has excellent accuracy, medium rate of fire uses(with Seals and other Spec Ops teams like mine) proprietery 9mm ammo…usally 147gr…that’s right…you can’t get it…it hit hard and does the job…the short models provide no advance warning cornering, have good muzzle characteristics etc…you know nothing about muzzle doctrine and discipline…multiple team memebers close quarters sweeping each other with an MP5…it is a court martial offnese….so get over it..you are no seal…and your situation is not anything close to theirs…

  • wsp1

    right…cops and military cops…sorry…I know massad…he is a competitive shooter and a good one…he is no Spec Ops guy…

  • wclardy

    Do you mean MP5K? So you would consider a snub-nosed .38 to be more comparable to a machine pistol than a shotgun? Really?

  • jerryg785

    70-71, Saigon, Kontum and Leghorn, Laos

  • wsp1

    Your logic is flawed and has no basis in fact…I did not compare anything to anything..the MP5K and others are used for a specific reason…short, easy to maneuver, firepower…not normal civilian needs…you do what you want…they will bury you with the rest. Get over your ego…I do not care if you listen of or not..i am telling you how it is from real life experience…the pro’s come in, care nothing about collateral damage, take no chances …and kill you…it is what they do. Civilians read a few articles attend a class then think they can handle it…we bury lots of them each year…

  • another_engineer

    No, I specifically said MP5A…

    are you sure you know your firearms?

    http://hk-tac.com/item.asp?prodID=170

  • wsp1

    you are thinking like a civilian…which is normal…if there is someone in your house and you think..honestly think they mean to do you harm…you think you should go out looking for them…right…..because you are trained in room sweeping tecjniques, CQB, hand to hand, right?….sure…you are a fool letting your ego talk…listen and learn…it will keep you alive.

  • JingoJohn

    If you, I or anyone disagrees with wsp1 we all become explitives…in his warped mind.

    Read his post on the origin of our rights.

  • wsp1

    The one I am referring to is I believe a K model…it is shorter than the A…has a hand stop etc and is concealable under a coat etc…regardless…yes, I am familiar with them all having trained with them overseas for several years….you worry about the labels and nomenclature,…I worry about the results. What fool ever told you to go through you home in the dark looking for bad guys (BG’s) terr’s or tango’s…?No one that knows what they are dong….like i saiud read the earlier posts…

  • wsp1

    your are free to disagree…it is just information…you read you decide …no problem

  • wclardy

    wsp1, I was responding to another_engineer, not you.

    However, I think you are conflating 2 entirely distinct scenarios.

    To my mind, the most likely bad guys I will encounter in my own home will be untrained, undisciplined, and (if they are armed) likely to shoot at anything that startles them. The only movement I would make in such a scenario would be to interpose myself between them and my loved ones pending the arrival of reinforcements (i.e., the local police).

    If I found myself in a confrontation with pros (which is highly unlikely at this time), my actions would be entirely different. In that instance, I would be focused on extracting my loved ones and myself from immediate danger and then retiring from the field of combat as quietly and expeditiously as possible.

    Note that my sole metric for a successful domestic defense scenario is how many friendlies are still walking, talking and cleaning underwear when all is done.

  • another_engineer

    We are talking home defense correct? I don’t know too many sane people that go to bed every night in tactical gear. Most are either in pajamas or their skivvies. And after you are awoken by a bump in the night from an intruder, you have neither the time nor the inclination to tell the intruder to stop cause you have to put on your camo and night vision or tell them to stop cause you’re eyes have to adjust.

  • wclardy

    Well, I was presuming that you were referring to some counter-terrorist drill(s) where the SEALS had used pistol-type weapons in preference to a shoulderable weapon (e.g., as in some of the airliner-siezure drills where the first guys in the door would be carrying semi-auto pistols). Hence my conclusion that you were referring to the MP5K configuration.

    However, if you are using the SEALs preference for a compact, shoulder-fired weapon to buttress your argument for a pistol over a shotgun, then I am truly befuddled by your logic.

  • wsp1

    wclardy…OK granted…but any amateur can kill you…inserting yourself between your loved ones and harm is wasted unless you have a reasonable proespect of success etc. Sentimentality plays no part in this…there is no real Cover in your home..unless it is a masonry fireplace, wall, etc…anyone with any training will shoot right through it…because you are not seen does not make you safe…so…in real life when we entereed and secrecy was not an issue…it was nothing to hose a corner , doorway etc…and drop those hiding on the other side…that is why I have said …repeatedly…retreat to your safe room…usually behaid a bed etc…with weapon aimed at ecntrance…usually 36 inches or less..you dial 911, speed dial…speaker phone…you wait…kill anything coming through the door?safe zone…yo do not move …you do not check on the BG’s ..you do not look for anyone…you await the Police….and take it from there…if you have family memebers , a well thought out paln for how to react…doors with locks, strees bar or brace to prevent kick ins…a way to egress out a window….perhaps pepper spray….youmust practice like a fire drill..you have rcogniotion sinals and distree words to let each other know if you have been compromised…remember if you die saving one child …the others will surely die…your choice…that is why few make the cut….life isn’t easy…dying is…

  • wsp1

    it makes no differnce since these weapons are not available to the avg citizen…tactics matter…not the weapon

  • JingoJohn

    Operators should be in jail for getting a home loan? You ARE off the deep end!

  • wsp1

    wrong…I have a valet stand in the corner next to my bed…it has a vest, goggles, hearing protection and my 870 and Sig…it takes less than 10 seconds to put on and be ready…those ten seconds make me a tough nut to crack…mush better than not doing it…

  • JingoJohn

    Exactly WHY I was vetted and approved to do financial transactions for these folks.

  • another_engineer

    Correct. It would seem alot of these posters aren’t using their heads in terms of terminal ballistics and potential unwanted casualties. I mean some of these people would prefer to cruise around their apartments/houses at night when they feel threatened with a Barrett M107. That would be lovely, except it’s totally impractical, totally insane for home defense and would potentially kill their own family members.

    I use common sense.

  • jcarroll727

    When to attack stops is when the attacker is dead.A wounded
    rattlesnake is the surest way to get killed. Stick by your belief and
    I’ll read about your funeral

  • wsp1

    One suggestion…the type of firearm is not important. you need to focus on strategy, planning and practice. The BG does not care what you shoot him with..just about anything will upset their game plan and ruin their evening.

    my wife has a Sig 232…and also a Ruger/ cut and suppressed…she can shoot 10 rounds in less than 2 sec into an 8 in circle at 21 feet every time…do you really thing the BG is going to find that OK…people are stupid…too much TV, to much Hollywood, Too much misinformation…they all think they are going to run into the dope addict …who is 6’5 220 lbs.,high on pcp ,they can shoot 12 times with a 416 remington and he won’t feel it….wrong! the gun ytur are comfortable with and can hit with reliably time after time is what you need….caliber is irrelevant…listen to all the gun writers, ex cops etc and others …fine..i don’t care…they are wrong…the one ina million scenario they are telling you about is usually inaccurate and covering their own mistakes…

    A .22 properly applied will ruin most people day…if they are agreessive …fine…two 40gr solids in the head works wonders…stop listenting to the hype and arm cahir commandos who think you need a 1911 to get the job done…you don’t…you need to know what you are doing, execute accurately and maintain confidence and control of yourself…

    people are easy to kill……much easier than ,most people think…

  • JingoJohn

    You ARE going to burst wsp1′s fantasy bubble with your “We are talking home defense here…” post. He/she LOVES to day dream about all the “black ops and “kills” he/she has under the belt.

    And here I always thought; ‘Those who KNOW don’t talk and those who TALK don’t know’!
    HOWEVER, here we have wsp1 doing a ‘tell all’ of where and when he/she did all this secret stuff…..huh? go figure.

    It sure LOOKS like he/she googled the different models of subject conversation for his/her following post.

  • donkenall

    I believe gun owners would be wise to establish a call list of local, fellow gun owners. This would be an “alert list,” much like a call-up for military reserves. You can call it a “Minute Man List.” If you open the front door to the ATF, have your wife start calling the list, and everyone show up on your front lawn, armed. If we don’t do this, YOU will be next. The only defense we have for the Second Amendment is to stand up, armed, to defend it yourself.

  • JingoJohn

    WSP1
    Your self stated so-called “knowledge” is starting to fall apart. Or, being revealed for the ANTI-CONSTITUTIONAL INDOCTRINATION many government employees receive.

    EXAMPLES:
    In relation to G*D given rights;
    1. “…last time I checked…God did not give us our rights….”
    2. “…reference to God in documents does not mean that God gave us anything….”

    In relation to shooting;
    1. “…big bore…for what purpose?…” THEN wsp1 google/bing searched ‘big bore’ and said no. 2
    2. “…well….anything .30 is not big to those who use it…”

    In relation to government;
    1. “…if you attacked me (wsp1)…you would feel the full force of retribution…family,friends in manners you can’t even contemplate..”
    2. “…you use Patriot freely…I know better…many will fold at the first sign of someone kickin their buttt..”
    3. “…No jerk…we do not work for “the citizens”…”

    I am beginning to think you, wsp1, are a COMPLETE FRAUD.

    BTW, go read what I wrote about shooting THREE WEEKS AGO on the following essay. GET BACK TO US ALL WITH YOUR THUS INFORMED OPINION. (For whatever your opinion is worth hahahah)

    Home Defense: 12 Gauge 00 Buckshot Can’t Be Beat
    by Robert M. Engstrom
    03/01/2011, HUMAN EVENTS

  • wsp1

    they should be in jail for talking about any operation they were involved in…the real ones took oaths…we were not allowed to speak about these ops under any conditions…no one let them go on record because they wanted a mortgage…idiot.

  • wsp1

    you are full of it…no one needed a special mortgage broker to take care of business…what kind of dream world do you live in?

  • wsp1

    Jingo…my records are still sealed…and no one who was really into any of these ops would be able to give you that informationm…so you are just stupid and gullible or you just like making things up to try and be important. Their records indicate milatary of govt service etc and that is it…it has no bearing on mortgages, financial transactions etc. I have (3) degrees, one of two grad degrees is from Wharton…you stuff is crap…the govt has lots of its own people to handle any cladestine issue and finances…they do not need someone like you.

  • wsp1

    doyou really think that I care at allwhat you think/…you are really pathetic….keep ranting…its good for you.

  • JingoJohn

    WHAT a HOOT! wsp1 is going to PUT ON HEARING PROTECTION before defending his loved ones…hahhahaah

    THAT is the last straw! This guy/gal is a FRAUD

  • ValdezisComing

    Suggestion: Have a tactical grip on the forend. Makes racking the slide easier and the support hand better able to grip the forend. Any shotgun will have some stout recoil. The addition on the forward grip will add control and reduce some of the recoil. The Remington 870 and Mossberg tactical shotguns are high on my list for purchase, service and part plus OEMs make them very flexible in lazer sights, magazine extensions, light attachments but most importantly, the shotgun must fit the user.

    I have practiced shooting by holding the stock underarm and barrel sighting. With a little practice, one can hit targets to 15-20 yards. At that range, you don’t require special ammo, #4 shot or larger will do just fine.

    Some years ago, a 5 foot girl took out a rapist with a can of oven spray; a store clerk took out several robbers with a 22 cal semi auto pistol, and my wife an intruder with a broom. The bottom line, know your surroundings, whats at hand and a keen eye for the obvious. Gut feelings have saved thousands each year from trouble.

  • propwash72

    I don’t have to “believe” anything…it’s codified law. No tactical instructor worth their salt would tell you to walk up to perp who had stopped the attack and put another shot in their head. Ask the pharmacist in OK City who’s looking at life in prison…he stopped a robbery…it was a clean self-defense case until he walked up to one perp and shot him 5 more times while he was on the ground. Coup de grace shots are just Hollywood crap.

  • MyronJPoltroonian

    It seems to me that this “Thread” (If that’s what it’s called. I’m still a’ larnin’ as I’ve only been at this e-thingy for two years. Still, at almost seventy, I ain’t too old t’ learn yet.) has veered off the main point. Namely; home defense with shotguns. Unfortunately, however, it seems to have degenerated into a “Clash of the Titans”. (At least in their less than self depreciating lack of humility.) Having a life, and other things to do, I see 41 new comments were posted sine last I sat down to say a few things. This is starting to resemble a “Message Board” (is it?) rife with back and forth catty retorts, much as happens any time Ann Coulter or Sarah Palin dares say anything that the technobabblist’s can respond to. Every thing from “Rambo’s” to world weary assassin’s vacillating between vestigial remnant of guilt and a seemingly less than nascent “God Complex” apparently brought on by having (and exercising) a License to Kill” (not for “God and Country”, just for “My Country, Right or Wrong, My Country” as long as they pay me) far too many times. How sad (Yes, I know you don’t want nor need anyone’s pity. None offered. As my mother used to say: “You made your bed, now lie in it”.) At least a fair few had some good pointers. the main point as far as I’m concerned is simply this: Not every situation is the same. Neither is the hardware required to meet the conditions. Think through the most likely scenarios first and plan multiple responses. But! Do not stop there. Consider other less likely but still possible ones as well and plan responses for them as well. Then, just like any good musician would tell you: “Practice, practice, practice!”.

  • JingoJohn

    ANYTHING of substance to say; or just more personal attacks?

  • wsp1

    you have it right….

  • wsp1

    yeah…you do what you think is best….becauseyou have been in a firefight in close quarters and understand the disorientation etc for gun fire…keep at it…your stupidy is only surpassed by your ignorance…

  • wsp1

    i just wonder why you lkeep living the lie…are you really that inadequate…you are like the many others who wish they could have..but never did….

  • wsp1

    jimgo…cute…you really should see how you look appear to others…it is quite humorous….

  • wsp1

    ‘ ANTI-CONSTITUTIONAL INDOCTRINATION many government employees receive..”
    that’s right Jingo….you are really thinking straight and have a rational view of the owrld…you keep at it….

  • MyronJPoltroonian

    I will add this one off-track comment: “Our Constitution is under attack and I, for one, will stand up and defend it. The oath I took when I joined the service (06/’59-06/’62): “To Preserve, Protect and Defend the Constitution of the United States of America Against All Enemies, both Foreign and Domestic”, placed no limit nor timeframe on my obligations in this matter and I recognize none.” Oh, yes: “Always aim just below the Blue Helmet. No matter what color it is”. (Okay, o.k., two off-track comments.)

  • Jason_1977

    (that’s what the lethal force triangle is….lol) THey have the MEANS, OPPORTUNITY, & INTENT. Like I said…..all 3 have to be proven in court whether military or otherwise. Talk to your local friendly police officers. I’m sure the lethal force triangle isn’t just a military paradigm (NOT to be confused with Rules of Engagement). The triangle IS the self defense formula. Mr. X, why did you shoot the perpatrator? Well, I was scared & I didn’t know who he was & he was stealing my stereo. Did you see he was unarmed? Yes. He could have had a gun though. Did he show signs of hostility when you found him? No, he began scurrying off though I wasn’t sure what he was doing…..Yeah…>FAIL!!!! OR, YES your honor, he had a snub nose revolver in his hand, thankfully he didn’t hear me in the hallway when I was behind him and put him down. Your honor, he had the Means, the Intent, and the opportunity should he had found me. See the difference? Owning a gun requires not only safety, but a THOROUGH and undeniable understanding of WHEN and when NOT to open fire. A concealed carrier @ the phoenix shooting WAS going to open fire, BUT he wasn’t sure of his target so HE DIDN’T DRAW IT….DONT DRAW UNLESS YOU INTEND TO SHOOT. He did the right thing. THAT was an example of discipline. THe military is the military….real life is real life…..the principles of disciplne, training, and target assessment are the same whether private jimbo, officer dave, or John Q. Public.

  • Jason_1977

    (that’s what the lethal force triangle is….lol) THey have the MEANS, OPPORTUNITY, & INTENT. Like I said…..all 3 have to be proven in court whether military or otherwise. Talk to your local friendly police officers. I’m sure the lethal force triangle isn’t just a military paradigm (NOT to be confused with Rules of Engagement). The triangle IS the self defense formula. Mr. X, why did you shoot the perpatrator? Well, I was scared & I didn’t know who he was & he was stealing my stereo. Did you see he was unarmed? Yes. He could have had a gun though. Did he show signs of hostility when you found him? No, he began scurrying off though I wasn’t sure what he was doing…..Yeah…>FAIL!!!! OR, YES your honor, he had a snub nose revolver in his hand, thankfully he didn’t hear me in the hallway when I was behind him and put him down. Your honor, he had the Means, the Intent, and the opportunity should he had found me. See the difference? Owning a gun requires not only safety, but a THOROUGH and undeniable understanding of WHEN and when NOT to open fire. A concealed carrier @ the phoenix shooting WAS going to open fire, BUT he wasn’t sure of his target so HE DIDN’T DRAW IT….DONT DRAW UNLESS YOU INTEND TO SHOOT. He did the right thing. THAT was an example of discipline. THe military is the military….real life is real life…..the principles of disciplne, training, and target assessment are the same whether private jimbo, officer dave, or John Q. Public.

  • wsp1

    correct…knowing what you can do is as important as doing it..

  • JingoJohn

    1. A Wharton grad as a ‘black ops shooter’ hahhahaah Not gonna happen.

    2. Who DO you think does home loans for clandestine services people? AND, what do you suppose those people tell the banker about their sources of income? The fed gov sure as hell does not just write them a check to purchase a home!

    3. Do you actually think the clandestine services people in the field get paid with U.S.GOVERNMENT checks? hahhahahah

    4. Go look into the history of SILVERADO S&L for starters. Then come back from your google search and I will give you names of 50 other institutions with similar history.

    5. If your records are sealed WHY are you blathering about them here?

  • wsp1

    myron…you oath was to the legally appointed govt….that menas the one curently in power…not the one you like.

  • Jason_1977

    By the way, I own a Mossberg 590, 8 round capacity, 6 round side saddle, surefire squeezable sights, she’s a darlin’!

  • DaneChile

    I really must wonder: How did you manage to be a “marine officer” for only two years? Why do you not capitalize “Marine” when saying you were an officer? Why would anyone that had truly been seconded to all of those elite units plus the CIA go around talking about it? They woula all have entailed TS non-disclosure restrictions under threat of imprisonment or worse. Yo mentioned that “marines” (strike two) would defend against all internals and externals. Defend what? I don´t think you know despite supposedly having sworn the oath.
    The only consistent answer that I can arrive at is that you, are full of crap and read too many trash novels for the Walter Mitty crowd.

  • wsp1

    actually i have not mentioned any place or op other than when in the military in nam…which is public knowledge through congressional hearings…as usual you are wrong again…why don’t you stop trying…you have not been correct once…don’t you get tired of being wrong!!….

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GTC6WAYDFUK7XWUER3CSIGGIWU Jerry

    Sir you sound like the people did in 1934 in germany.People with your attitude and oh its 2011 should stop and look around. I for one am not ready to lay down and whimper, please dont hurt me!!! It is the way you speak about the would be constitutional scholars that shows just what side of the fence you would come down on when push comes to shove.

  • wsp1

    your are so stupid …70% of cladestine ops people come from Ivy league schools…you are jsut so ignorant…theese are not ground pounders..they are highly trained operatives for the USA…working in real life, real time scenarios that you could never hope to imagine or participate in. Also have one form Baruch, Post grad for Brookings Institute and Univ of paris…but then…you shoot 24000 rds a yera right!!!!…so pathetic…

  • wsp1

    #1. No the std govt agency does not write the check…but then again…neither do you.
    #2. The ops community is small and a high percentage from IVY league and other high end schools…hate to disappoint you.
    #3. Clandestine ops people get paid from acct’s you do not know exist, both on shore and off shore…depending on need.
    #4. I have told you nothing about any ops etc..that is all your mouth..not mine.
    #5.Did you get like this recently becasue you are old(65+) out of date and no longer viable or were you always on the outside becuse you caould not cut it?

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • wsp1

    they work!—I have a 590a1…it is heavy but reliable

  • JingoJohn

    “MyronJ…”

    “…Think through the most likely scenarios first and plan multiple responses. But! Do not stop there. Consider other less likely but still possible ones as well and plan responses for them as well….”

    EXACTLY my thinking printed on this thread and also: THREE WEEKS AGO on:
    Home Defense: 12 Gauge 00 Buckshot Can’t Be Beat
    by Robert M. Engstrom
    03/01/2011, HUMAN EVENTS

    I don’t take kindly being called a JERK for believing in our CONSTITUTION by some GESTAPO AGENT (wsp1) feeding off the CITIZENS TEET.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • JingoJohn

    Sure, every Marine, S.E.A.L., SAS put on hearing protection before a fire fight. RIGHT! SURE! hahahhahaah

  • JingoJohn

    ANYTHING of substance to say? Or, do you STILL have ONLY personal attacks?
    ANY quotations from me you would like to post?

    I have PLENTY from you! WANNA address those quotations?

  • JingoJohn

    ANYTHING of substance to say? Or, do you STILL have ONLY personal attacks?
    ANY quotations from me you would like to post?

    I have PLENTY from you! WANNA address those quotations?

  • hicusdicus

    Their are 300 million Americans who should be scared to death and mad as hell but they just don’t understand or believe that their way of life is coming to an end. We no longer have a government by the people or for the people. We have a government of money greed and power and piss on everything else. Guns won’t stop this. Actively participating in the affairs of your governing body is the only way to stop this slide into hell.

  • Jason_1977

    A cold simple truth is when MARTIAL LAW is declared, the MILITARY is in charge. I’ll use the cliche “THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRACY!” When Martial Law is declared, TECHNICALLY, it’s the writ of habeus corpus that’s being suspended and not the constitution, but for some reason the constitution goes out the proverbial window. It’s sad, but it’s a cold truth. I think it SUCKS, but it’s the truth. THERE IS the rule of law, but martial law will ALWAYS be a dictatorship. It’s that simple. NOW, if we were smart, we’d think of maybe telling our lobbyists to maybe push for a law making an amendment something to the affect of THE CONSTITUTION STILL GOVERNS UNDER MARTIAL LAW….because THAT is NOT in the constitution. I wish it was, but it isn’t. Martial law can be declared by the congress or the president…..and it sometimes in our history it was necessary, Ie; the civil war, the whiskey rebellion, etc…heck, Katrina…. But going door to door removing the ability of the law abiding citizen to protect themselves is just plain WRONG!!!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GTC6WAYDFUK7XWUER3CSIGGIWU Jerry

    You speak like you are the only one on here with a military background sir.I am a U.S Army Airborne Ranger and am still damn proud of it. You have stated that you were a Marine Officer from 71-73, Just exactly where in 71-73 did you do room sweeps and clearing? Were you in Nam? From my reading of your posts on this sight Sir,you sound more like a John Myrtha marine than an Oliver North Marine. Once again sir you are not the only combat indoctrinated person here so when you slander these people on this site I have to ask myself, if you really feel this way about these folks then why are you still here yourself??? Mst. Srgt. J.w.W.10th Mtn.Spec/Ops 335th Air Assault Grp.1st Bgde.

  • wsp1

    you really do not know do you….

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • wsp1

    I have addressed them all multiple times…you keep thinking you will get a different answer…wrong…you have not been correct once in your assessments etc….you have a perfect record…zero…not surprising.

  • wsp1

    I think you had probalbly get used to being called a jerk…it seems to fit you.

  • JingoJohn

    wsp1 the ONLY Marine officer in the history of the Corps with a TWO (2) year deal…hahhahaha

    wsp1 said: “…i know I was a marine officer 71-73..”

    Well, unless he/she was released for a physical or mental defect. He/she CLAIMS additional “special black ops” hocus-pocus service so maybe it WAS MENTAL.

    Judging by his/her ANTI-CONSTITUTIONAL, anti CITIZEN posts that seems the most likely.

    BTW, MOST Marines I know, CAPITALIZE Marine.

    50:1 odds says wsp1 comes back and says he/she was “sheep dipped”!

    That is after he/she googles “sheep dipped” hahah

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • MyronJPoltroonian

    Riddle me this: Since when did the acronym “POTUS” (President Of The United States) morph into “Potentate Of The United States”? Some may not remember the story behind the saying, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned”. Nero caused the fires to be set so he could rebuild it in his image from the ashes. I’m becoming more and more convinced that we’ve installed in the highest office in the land, a “NerObama”. I would ask the nay sayers in the Main Stream Press this simple question: “If he was suffering from a “Nero Complex”, how would he act any differently?”. Which is the one, of course, they’ll never ask themselves – let alone anyone else. Notice the one proviso in the oath everyone in my generation took who served their country: “… and Domestic …”. Try this: “President Clinton took a quiet survey of Marines at the 29 Palms Desert Training Facility and Air Base, asking if they would have any trouble serving under a U.N. commander, and, most tellingly, if they would have a problem confiscating firearms from civilians; shooting those who refused or resisted. To Disarm The People 2nd Amendment Federal Reserve 2nd Amendment …
    Fortunately for the Weaver family, there were civilian witnesses at the scene, … “An actual copy of the questionnaire being administered on a Marine Base in 29 Palms, … `I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of … IRS, Internal Revenue Service, President Clinton, the Supreme Court, … .” Now, I ask you, is that the government you willingly and knowingly serve(d)? If it is and/or was, then, “Old Son”, We have a problem.

  • wsp1

    Apparently you do not know much about the marines either…I was a volunter and had skills they wanted besides the education. In those day you had a ‘contract’…if they could not keep it ..they had to give you a choice of duty or out…I went in for flight because my father was a pilot in WWII. It was closed since they were winding down the war and did not have the funding to continue, knowing they would have alot of in service pilots coming back…therfore i was given my choice of duty…so miiltary Intell….and after two years offeredd an early out, because Uncle Sam did not want to pay for alot of junior officers sitting around…you are just so ignorant…i love it. The govt recruited ex military and especially highly educated and those with specialized skills,…obviously not your forte.

    My talking with you is done, because having dialogue with a mental midget is not very challenging…like I said previously..that you ignored,
    are you just feeling down because you are old and washed up or has it always been like this because you couldn’t make the cut? It is sad when you realize that you do not make a differnce isn’t it.

    I do not worry about typing syntax..I leave that to idiots like you…capitalizing marine…now there is an important notation..hardly…I capitalize very little…it changes nothing, only for those who think small and not very well. it is not form but content that matters ,,,and you have neither. Good luck in your oblivion…you will need it.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • wsp1

    correct,…but jingo is an expert…he will tell you so….by the way…what banned gun?

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • JingoJohn

    Off to one of the fern bars in my ’64, turbocharged 454 in.³ V-8 GTO convert with my beautiful blonde GF by my side!
    We love to go into those restaurants where we can have someone with a degree in one of those bogus subjects like “womens studies”, “ethnic studies”; or, a PhD in one of those goofball, PSEUDO “sciences” like sociology…..
    do exactly what they are QUALIFIED to do:
    WAIT ON OUR TABLE! Hahahha
    Later, Alligators

  • wsp1

    when you go against the duly elected govt…you are an internal threat..and need to be dealt with.The armed sevices arre sworn to protect the duly elected govt…problem?..you do not get to pick and choose the parts you like …you shoudl know that…you are acting very immature.

  • wsp1

    yup…old, forgotten and still trying to be noticed…pathetic but so much like you Jingo…it is a true classis….i love it.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • JingoJohn

    It looks like you have not been on Human Events long enough to see one of my favorite posts. I have been posting the following for about 3.5 years.

    The global-socialist-WORLD GOVERNMENT TRASH who PLAN a merger of the USA, Canada & Mexico and are arrayed against REAL AMERICANS, do, and will, respect ONLY one phrase as stated by their revered leader Mao: paraphrased; “All power comes from the barrel of a gun.”

    Axiom of Jingo John:
    “A generals worst nightmare is a CITIZEN with a rifle in every window.”
    Recommendations:
    1. Go buy a decent bolt action or semi-auto “big bore” (.30+) with a 10x scope.
    2. Study and adapt to modern times:
    FRANCIS MARION; “The Swamp Fox”, Considered one of the fathers of modern guerrilla warfare and credited in the lineage of the United States Army Rangers
    Marion rarely committed his men to frontal warfare, but repeatedly surprised larger bodies of Loyalists or British regulars with quick surprise attacks and equally quick withdrawal from the field.
    ALSO; NATHAN BEDFORD FORREST; “The Wizard of the Saddle”, (forget the KKK argument) he was a GENIUS with “SMALL UNIT” and “SHOOT and SCOOT” tactics. (Apply his thinking with motorcycles, trucks, 4x4s or cars. Allegedly, the ‘Blitzkrieg’ was based on his thinking.)
    AND; Of course, “The Art of War” by Sun Tzu who was also a great military teacher, strategist and philosopher.
    (The TRANSLATION by USMC General Samuel B. Griffith, brings a Warriors perspective to the work of a previous Warrior and is the BEST VERSION by a wide margin.)
    ARM YOURSELF AND PREPARE
    TO DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE USA!
    ARM YOURSELF AND PREPARE
    TO DEFEND THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE USA!
    ARM YOURSELF AND PREPARE
    TO DEFEND THE BORDERS OF THE USA!
    “If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed;
    if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly;
    you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival.
    There may even be a worse case.
    You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”
    Sir Winston Churchill.

    PS: is that wsp1 kicking in my door to arrest me for my THOUGHTS?

  • wsp1

    It can be done at the polls…vote him out…don’t talk about it do it. Organize, work together, stay committed…that is how it works…

  • wsp1

    You just do not get it even afteer 3.5 yrs…no one is listening to you…give it up…you do not matter…you are insignificant, you have no meaning or purpose other than to rant…..laughable, just laughable….

  • hicusdicus

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  • wsp1

    Original post…sorry for the side issues…

    If you use a shotgun, it should be as follows;

    1. 12/20..it does not matter at indoor room distances
    1a. 18 0r 20 in bbl/….no longer…with sights
    2. Use reduced loads that are lead not steel…over pentration can happen
    3, Use a firerm you are comfortable with…not that you read about or that someone else uses..theer is no perfect action or style..they all have advantages etc.
    4. You must pattern the gun to see where it actually shoots
    5. Practice weapon manipulation…loading, unloading, clearing FTF/FTE if using pumps or autos, sling the weapon, unsling etc etc…you must be familiar with all aspects of the firearm if your life is going to depend on it.
    6. Shoot the weapon…practice…
    7. You do not need alot of gadgets and spec ops tools…but …a light is good since most things happen at night..

    Better yet, ensure you have a plan, a safe area, phone , access to escape etc…if you have family, everyone needs to know, participate and understand the gravity etc.

    Be aware and do not create situations that give you a disadvantage…anticipate issues, and correct them before hand.If you need to fix a window or a lock…do it.

  • nopenotme

    I don’t have any guns, don’t even like them – no, not me – anyone asks _ I don’t have ‘em – can’t stand ‘em – nope…. – wouldn’t even stay in the same home with one – not me….. – can’t stand guns – nope – don’t have any to take away – just don’t have any…. – :)

  • JingoJohn

    CHECK OUT what wsp1 has to say about CITIZENS and our Constitution in this previous post to wsp1.

    Your self stated so-called “knowledge” is starting to fall apart. Or, being revealed for the ANTI-CONSTITUTIONAL INDOCTRINATION many government employees receive.

    EXAMPLES:
    In relation to G*D given rights;
    1. “…last time I checked…God did not give us our rights….”
    2. “…reference to God in documents does not mean that God gave us anything….”

    In relation to shooting;
    1. “…big bore…for what purpose?…” THEN wsp1 google/bing searched ‘big bore’ and said no. 2
    2. “…well….anything .30 is not big to those who use it…”

    In relation to government;
    1. “…if you attacked me (wsp1)…you would feel the full force of retribution…family,friends in manners you can’t even contemplate..”
    2. “…you use Patriot freely…I know better…many will fold at the first sign of someone kickin their buttt..”
    3. “…No jerk…we do not work for “the citizens”…”

    I am beginning to think you, wsp1, are a COMPLETE FRAUD.

    BTW, go read what I wrote about shooting THREE WEEKS AGO on the following essay. GET BACK TO US ALL WITH YOUR THUS INFORMED OPINION. For whatever your opinion is worth hahahah
    Home Defense: 12 Gauge 00 Buckshot Can’t Be Beat
    by Robert M. Engstrom
    03/01/2011, HUMAN EVENTS

  • wsp1

    ho hum….yawn….you again….I thogh your ere going…another made up story…figures…laughable…laughable…
    the paraphrasing is good…the understanding…non existent…you are a joke….laughable…just so funny.

  • wsp1

    it is alwasy best to not tip your hand…stealth and surprise are good tools to ahve.

  • wsp1

    Ok..I was not sure what you were referring too…now i understand? A potential scenario…yes, it could happen, but it will not come internally. The biggest threat comes from a UN sanction or agreement. Then our politicians will plead ignorance and claim they are forced to go along inorder to keep peace in the world and show we are a cooperative nation etc. it is the only politically acceptable way they can get it through.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • 23rd_Americal

    LOL, I hear you, my friend. You’re probably also the kind of guy that won’t “rack” the slide on your shotgun to scare the boogey man off; you’ll be ready and he won’t know till the big bang that you were waiting on him, ready!

  • wsp1

    Yes, there are many many instances of people coming and going in the various services that do not fit the standard view….the military always does what is best for the military…if they need you…they keep you…if they don’t…you are gone…they do not like to pay for what they can not use.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • wsp1

    that is the way it is…it takes no time to rack and fire…there is no need to have one in the pipe…there is more than one instance of premature fire, accidental discharge etc…nerves and the situation create strange things happening…if you are not fully comfortable and aware ,…you are a danger to yourself and others so it is best to be prepared…but not with your finger on the trigger…!!!

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • 23rd_Americal

    I got to say one thing about you! You sure lit the place up around here! Just be aware that not all the folks that post on here are “Rambos” and “armchair commandos”. Some of us are just law-abiding citizens that simply believe in the right to defend ourselves and those we love. While we may not have had exciting CIA careers as “hit men”, some of us have faced off with bad guys in armed confrontations through military or law enforcement experiences. Very few of us are “killing machines” nor do we want to be, but most of us will defend ourselves and our families with whatever it takes. The weapon is the area between the ears, everything else is just tools! Semper Fi!

  • wsp1

    Hope springs eternal….it is very difficult for people to accept that they have no alternative other than to fight , as in shooting war. They will constantly look for a way out, a compromise, a means to put off the decision etc. Do you think that Mom wants Johnny and Suzy in the middle of a protracted guerilla war in the streets…I think not…are all the people with the home, the car, the job and money in the bank ready to give it all up…i think not….do you think the “haves” are ready to give it all to the “have nots”…i think not….point is…revolution happens when the people have nothing..literally and therfore nothing to lose. Rich nations like the USA make it very diifcult for this type of incindiary action to take place because millions of people have too much to lose. If you think a good percentage of America is willing to go into some form of apocalyptic setting to prove a point…ie. Mad Max…think again….not happening. Only a fool thinks otherwise….you want change…do it the hard way…vote for it, organize, publish, work the street, get out the vote….that is how it is done.

  • wsp1

    well said…everyone serves, some in more intimate ways than others…but all is important. Defending your self is natural…it is the resons you deem it necessary that make the difference. We have a form of gov t that gives us the means and the tools to enact change…we have seen it over and over. people are lazy, they talk they bitch…but they do little in the way of positive action to make a change. Organize, publish, work the streets, get out the vote…that is the American way…guns and bullets.? we are not some third rate banana republic that elects a junta every three years through force…please. All of us who served in any capacity took an oath to defend this nation…you can be part of the problem…or part of the solution….I personally never saw a gun or a killing change anyones mind…they may be dead…but it did not change their mind…and the thought lived on. Do it right…do it the American way….get it done.

  • 23rd_Americal

    You ever cleared a room or tactically entered it without one in the pipe?

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • wsp1

    No, but i also never did it alone…and I had lots of training…for the novice the chance of accidental discharge is very high!

  • hicusdicus

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  • wsp1

    I understand…i have been a shooter for my entire life…before the service and after up and including now…competition etc…I used silhouettes and the ubiquitus B27 etc because it was what we were taught on…but since then….I use reg std targets…why…it is the mind set. it should not appear to be easy to shoot at people…it is a bad idea to instill in people. Too much TV, Hollywood, Games and assinsine blogs create a mental scenario for may that allows them to live in a semi false state of reality and not contempalte or understand that shooting someone is a “forever” deal…there is no replay., it is not a game, it is not macho…it should not be taken lightly.

  • wsp1

    It does not matter how you got in or out…only what you did while there. if you acted in an honorable manner, that is all that matters. Many people had a hard time in the service for various resons. I never knew anyone that thought it would be fun to get shot at…well maybe one or two…but they were rare…most people do not like it, and while they do it…it is not a macho thing, but more of a self test and obligation to fulfill…

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • outofluckoutofammo

    wow, i started out thinking this was just a review about shotguns for home defense? its sad that ultimately, it will be the honest american joe citizen that will suffer with further gun control…the guy breaking into your house surely didnt have a background check before he got his gun.

  • http://profiles.google.com/philwhite777 Phil White

    Get real. In 28 years I’ve cleared more buildings, homes etc than I can remember. Drawing on someone—again more times than I can remember. Actual shootings—two in that time. My experience is not unusual.

  • wsp1

    yes…that would undoubtedly be true

  • http://profiles.google.com/philwhite777 Phil White

    I thought we were talking about the merits of the shotgun for home defense?

  • outofluckoutofammo

    wow…this sounds like a really bad plot to an even worse steven segal movie…lol…blah blah blah…bling bling bling blah

  • wsp1

    what is your point?

  • wsp1

    if you have a question or suggestion…let haveit…

  • wsp1

    for the newcomers…a few thoughts…

    Original post…sorry for the side issues…

    If you use a shotgun, it should be as follows;

    1. 12/20..it does not matter at indoor room distances
    1a. 18 0r 20 in bbl/….no longer…with sights
    2. Use reduced loads that are lead not steel…over pentration can happen
    3, Use a firerm you are comfortable with…not that you read about or that someone else uses..theer is no perfect action or style..they all have advantages etc.
    4. You must pattern the gun to see where it actually shoots
    5. Practice weapon manipulation…loading, unloading, clearing FTF/FTE if using pumps or autos, sling the weapon, unsling etc etc…you must be familiar with all aspects of the firearm if your life is going to depend on it.
    6. Shoot the weapon…practice…
    7. You do not need alot of gadgets and spec ops tools…but …a light is good since most things happen at night..

    Better yet, ensure you have a plan, a safe area, phone , access to escape etc…if you have family, everyone needs to know, participate and understand the gravity etc.

    Be aware and do not create situations that give you a disadvantage…anticipate issues, and correct them before hand.If you need to fix a window or a lock…do it.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • wsp1

    remember…you do not go looking for the BG/Tango….you stay in your safe zone…

    retreat to your safe room…usually behind a bed etc…with weapon aimed at entrance…usually 36 inches or less..you dial 911, speed dial…speaker phone…you wait…kill anything coming through the door?/safe zone…you do not move …you do not check on the BG’s ..you do not look for anyone…you await the Police….and take it from there…if you have family members , a well thought out plan for how to react…doors with locks, strees bar or brace to prevent kick ins…a way to egress out a window….perhaps pepper spray….you must practice like a fire drill..you have recognioion signals and distree words to let each other know if you have been compromised…remember, if you die saving one child …the others will surely die…your choice…that is why few make the cut….life isn’t easy…dying is…

  • Dons621

    Browming field pump Law Enforcement loads 1 650 ball 6 1 buck shot 13. after a few boxes they can have it. The Germans tried so did the Japs next

  • wsp1

    British and Rhodesians developed a Buck and ball load called the malalya load that we used in nam…it worked quite well.

  • hicusdicus

    gone

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Richard-Wagener/100000966984108 Richard Wagener

    I disagree with you on this referring to the “Bull” about what Jefferson and Washington said. That is exactly because the current batch of Liberals have to continually be reminded of what these people said, why they said it, and what they stood for. They are desparately trying to get rid of the Constitution, and I for one will continue to remind them. If they don’t like it here they can damn well move to Cuba, China, Venezuela or any of the other two-bit Dictatorships throughout the world. I guarantee I won’t be the first to blink when it comes to a staredown with them. Obama would like nothing better than to turn this country into just another 3rd World Nation. And unless people remember why this country was founded he will succeed.

  • wsp1

    I trrained with Brits for three yrs,,i was a liason officer etc..Uncle Sam…anyway..they used browninign humpback Auto 5′s with an 8 rd extension and their own loads…the malaya load…totally against the Geneva Convention..but then again…they were not supposed to be there anyway…Anzac forces fought with us in nam….II corp and IIIcorp …they were one tough group of brits , Aussies and new Zealanders…so much the avg person does not know about…then ther were the ROKS…republic of korea marines…whoa…mean?…nastier than cat shi$##4

  • wsp1

    hicusdicus…if you are around firearms long enough …you participate in or witness a major screw up…no one is immune….including me…

  • Dons621

    The M1 And the Bar feel good.

    SEMPER FI

  • wsp1

    well, ther is no crime in being prepared..but being paranoid is a serious condition…
    i have firearms in strategic locations in my home…they are in seemingly normal palces in sight but not….however. When ever i have people over…everything ..but the one I have on…goes in the safe.

  • wsp1

    yes, the old workhorse, M1 is a fine weapon in many respects only hindered by its weight and enbloc clip…the BAR was eclipsed early on by the Bren ie. Czech 59 design ..it was a better weapon all around. more firepower, interchangeable bbls, larger magazine, good controllability…accurate…a fine weapon…

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Richard-Wagener/100000966984108 Richard Wagener

    And what do you think is going to happen after you give up your guns?

    Newspaper Interview in The Berlin Daily dated April 15, 1935, page 3, article 2, written by Einleitung Von Eberhand.

    “This year will go down in history. For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future.” – Adolph Hitler

  • wsp1

    yes…but then that would actually take some work and effort…that these arm chair losers are not about to do…

  • MyronJPoltroonian

    Well, since there’s no reply “Button” to your opinion, I’ll do it this way. “Duly Elected”? My “Maturity, Young Son” is no act. The last half of my three years of my active duty enlistment was spent as Battalion Photographer for the 8th Trans. Bn., Lt. Helicopters, just outside of Munich, W. Germany. As such, I got to meet and talk with a lot of officers and enlisted men who were either in WW II, or were in the constabulary forces immediately after; also, I got to meet and talk to several German soldiers who had served in WW II. All of them agreed, “I was just following orders” was not an excuse for the horrific acts that were committed under Hitler’s command. Point being, Mr. Roboto, is that an unlawful order is just that – unlawful – and he who follows those orders is equally as guilty as he who gives them. Never make a threat (veiled or not) my friend. Or you’ll be in Hell a’fore me. Let’s see if you’re a man, or if you only take the cowards way, from a safe distance, or in the back, or both. Oh, yeah, “And that’s not a threat, that’s a promise”, as any “First Dick” worth his salt would tell you. -30-

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Richard-Wagener/100000966984108 Richard Wagener

    The Seals I know never talk about what they have done.

  • wsp1

    Myron…you answered your own question…if and only if the order is illegal, and that has a very defined context…not your personal opinion…does it allow you to disobey, and then you need in in writing…got it. I am not sure what veiled threats you are referring too so I’ll ignore that…tough talk and bravado mean nothing to me…you and yours have no clue, experience or skills to enforce it..i do…and have. If i listen to every boasting wanna be tough type…gee..there would not be enought time in the day…you would do better to listen and learn…pissin in the wind is for losers…the smart man knows when he is in over his head and does not let his ego write checks his butt can not cash….

  • MyronJPoltroonian

    Y’know, what you just said makes a lot of sense. However, I would take a might better care better care as to your threats, veiled or not. Otherwise, horror of horrors, we might be on the same side. -30-

  • wsp1

    new world order…please….one more conspiracy theory…just what we need….try working the sytem and getting the votes to elect people you believe in. Spend more times doing that and less ranting on blogs and you may just make a differnece.

  • lngrngr

    O.K.

  • wsp1

    danechile…myself and others had skills and attributes including education in demand. In addition when the war was winging down, the govt did not want alot of junior officers sitting around collecting pay and pensions…idiot..I always love the know it alls…i do not capitalize much , it is being lazy in typing..i believe content is better thatn form…also, marines are marines…no better , no worse..everyone bleeds the same ..jerk.only an idiot believes the PR and press put out….I don’t live in the past …it is boring..i did not mention any opps or what I have done…except military service in nam, which is public recoird, and subject to congressioanl hearings which i participated in..as%$#65h..so, what ever you think ..you are wrong. Everyone was sworn to secrecy, and signed..everyone…no details , no names, nothing…which is exactly what you got…apparrently you do not understand the oath to protect the USA from all enemies domestic and foreign…oh …let me translate…internal and external…stupid…I was not seconded…i was brought in after my service…I was recruited, and I had a choice…due to education and skills…sorry if it does not fit your preconceived ideas…

  • wsp1

    I am not against self defense…i am against the cavalier attitude and bull put forth by many that have never been in harms way and act as if they know…the only civilians I know as proficient as me, were civilians in name only…sorry…fact.

  • wsp1

    myron…what threats..you have me at a loss?

  • MyronJPoltroonian

    This is weird, but I’m gettin’ the hang of it – I think. You noted: ” …if and only if the order is illegal, and that has a very defined context…not your personal opinion…does it allow you to disobey, and then you need in in writing… “, Does that mean if you follow an illegal verbal command it’s ok? Because you didn’t have it in writing, it’s o.k.? You’re not somehow equally as guilty? My God, man, you must’ve been a JAG officer in another life.

  • wsp1

    it means you must follow procedure to make it stick, when you refuse an oder you must request it in writing, and reply in same…and you need a witness. If they refuse to give it to you in writing,,..the witness is used to corroborate your request…do it wrong..it gets thrown out…

  • wsp1

    remember…when you refuse an order…you are not making any friends…so they will use the full weight and force of the service to hammer you into the ground. that is why it is imperative to do it properly…

  • lngrngr

    File attached, FWIW. In my mind, what stops them the best is what I’ll
    be thinking about if I use a gun defensively. Pay special attention to
    that part in the file about most shots in a gunfight being misses, and
    how virtually nobody has ever been sued for hitting someone through
    the body of another. Sheer fantasy.

  • wsp1

    i was in nam in 72..I did not do any CQB activities in nam in the conventional sense. I was a liason office attached to an Anzak team that worked with Phoenix through MACV-SOG which was attached indirectly to NCS/SOG/SAD/ on the civilian side….that is how i was recruited when i was released……any other questions mr ranger? Your combat experience like mine…does not equate to the civilian world…got it.

  • wsp1

    i beleive that yu experience is very typical…and accurate.

  • wsp1

    actually ..i do not remember slandering anyone…i remember stating emphatically that all the tough talk and bravado means nothing. The cavalier attitudes and the shoot em dead mantality is both stupid and unrealistic. Also, because you served and spent time in a combat zone or even had someone shoot at you …does not make you an expert or a superman…it means you made it through by luck, skill or a combination of the two…and it further means that your in country experience rarely is applicable to the civilian scenario…if you have a problem with that…you will just have to live with it. my experience has proven it to be real.

  • MyronJPoltroonian

    I think I figured out how to answer your question regarding “What threat? I don’t know what you’re talking about.”. That would be, since you work for the government: “[W]hen you go against the duly elected govt…you are an internal threat..and need to be dealt with.” Seriously, I agree with the whole “Go – get involved, go vote, et cetera. It’s the whole “Animal Farm”, “Some are more equal than others”, unequal unjustice department that’s just the canary-in-the-coal-mine as to where this administration intends to take us that has me worried. Hillary Clinton, as Secretary of State, signing us on to the “Small Arms Treaty” of the UN. Yes, the one that if the Democrat controlled Senate ratifies, will nullify the Second Amendment. Don’t forget Chairman Mao’s observation: “All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The Communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.” It was put into effect and millions died. Those who say, “It can’t happen here” are either fools, whistling past the graveyard, or they’re in agreement which is, to me, treasonous. I (and millions like me) will vote until they no longer count my vote – then I will vote more forcefully. Put another way, I’ve said in the past that – When this speech is declared illegal, I’ll become a criminal: “I may become an enemy of the state, but never of the people”. Of course, one can always while away their few remaining days in servitude, dismally remembering the wisdom of the Reverend Martin Niemoeller, quote: “In Germany, the Nazis first came for the communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a communist. … and then, when they came for me, there was no one left to speak for me.”

  • wsp1

    I under stand the sentiment and the rhetoric as well as the lessons from history and do not necessarily disagree with it. What I have tried to indicate is that while we may have the zeal and the motivation..we are sorely lacking in the means..the end is very predictable. The UN agreement is a potential death nell to American firearm ownership. It is a subtefuge for removing our rights and it can work. the politicians know they can not do it outright, it is political suicide, but if a UN resolution is passed and we as a member have to agree etc…well, you can see what comes next..the politicains claim it is not their fault, we have to be good global citizens etc etc…it is the only politically palatable scenario. I have a great fear of this happening…yet you think about it and ask yourself…in all other respects life is good, so how hard will the avg person really push it…and to what will it avail? No, I do not believe the American psyche is ready to give it all up for a principal…we are unfortunately, too selfish and care about what is in it for me…remember..there are millions of non gun owners and others in the middle that will have no qualms about agreeing with the change. It is unfortunate but potentially inevitable.

  • DaneChile

    You fell for it, Mr. Mitty. First of all, not capitalizing “Marine” is not “typing laziness” – it is sheer ignorance (i.e. – a lack of knowledge). Secondly, there is no officer of any branch that has sworn to “defend the USA”. We – yes, I said “we”, as in USN (Ret) with 23 YOS)- swore to defend THE CONSTITUTION of the United States of America. Any officer would understand the diffference.
    I suggest you get one of your Rambo books and hit the head. You´re a might overdue on releasing some stress.

  • MyronJPoltroonian

    There are only two other things in this world that are inevitable – Victory or Defeat. Both are a state of mind. May I remind you of something said in one of our darkest hours. When we were not even a country yet and the 1/3rd. had not yet risen to fight for the whole: “They tell us, sir, that we are weak — unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance, by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? . . . Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?” – Patrick Henry.
    Good night, sir. May you not be on the side of slavery because you believe any cost for freedom is too high.

  • wsp1

    like most you are entitled to your opinion..try and remember ..it does not make you right…as far as defending the constitution goes, if you want to play sematics…fine…as far a being a marine officer..it was good experience, but i never bought into the hype after seeing the first dead one…you “capitalize” what ever you want..but try and remeber your opinions are not fact, and are not gospel that everyone else believes or adhers to…live in the past if you want because you served…who cares…million upon millions served…so what…many did it because they had no choice, lack of options, no place else to go…so get over the hype and other crap…when I went in..it was for a very specific reason during a time when no one liked the military…no one…and I got exactly what i wanted based on education and skills, no one came after me, no one drafted me. I volunteered with a distinct purpose and need in order to fulfill my commitment and move on to a career i wanted in State /Govt My plan worked out…….23 yrs in the Navy…unless you are a retired flag officer ..what was the point? was that your paln?

  • bmrtoyo

    its 2011 and the constitution still stands as written , the current year on the calender has no bearing on that !

  • Steve1981

    I question your data on a couple of points. You said the shotgun round has more muzzle velocity than the 9 mm. 9 mm: 1509 FPS 12 guage 1325 FPS.

    The purpose of the rack is as a warning, which if not listened to should result in immediate point and shoot. I say point, because having qualified expert with the pistol, rifle, and machine gun, I will still say that the aim process used in a pistol is much more difficult to achieve round on target than looking down the barrel of a shotgun at the assailant and firing. They are hardly the same.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NPMP6X22BXBE2R34K4UOUZ5XEA hatter1951

    i suggest that you go to the federal secretary of state websight and read about the ‘small arms proliferation’ treaty being promoted by hillary and obummer.

  • hicusdicus

    What do you think is going to happen to you if you don’t give them up? If gun confiscation laws come to pass they will have big sharp teeth. Confiscation of your assets, prison or Or dying in a hail of bullets from the collectors. You pick one. It has to be stopped before it gets to that point.

  • Kbuzz

    I do not keep a round in the tube – ever, and for many reasons.
    First and foremost is safety: In a corner or on a rack, if the shotgun falls, it can go off (handguns, thru better design?, don’t seem to have this problem), California is also prone to earthquakes; rug rats are too curious – 3 yr old picked up 22 that i had just cleaned, and pointed it at mom – I experienced severe physical damage to self.
    Secondly, the most likely scenario of a house intruder is alway surprise, followed by a brief panic, grab gun, discharge – Oops. Or picture the kid coming home for a Christmas Surprise – this has happened many a time.
    People who wake up react without thinking – you need time, and getting out of bed, walking over to get said weapon, and racking a round gives you that time.
    Last, and this is a California thing, racking a round means I had no intention of deadly force, but the intruder kept coming, I feared for my life and fired to scare them off…they kept coming…fired several times…in their general direction…untill they were no longer a threat…are they okay…quick, call 911, need ambulance…they may be hurt.

  • http://twitter.com/jdglock JD Glock

    Yesterday wsp1 asked me why I wanted a 9 rd Mossberg 590 when 6 rds seemed sufficient to him. He cited the fact that if you blast the 1st one, the others would run away. (around post #80) The mideast fighter may send in one at a time to ‘test’ the situation, so wsp1′s assumption could be correct for that. But in domestic home invasions, this is usually the scenario:
    MISSOURI CITY, TX (KTRK) — Police are investigating a home invasion burglary in Missouri City in which the suspects posed as police officers.
    Shortly after 9:30pm Tuesday, THREE MEN identifying themselves as police officers forced their way into a home in the 3300 block of Aegean, according to Missouri City police. Once inside, the suspects, armed with handguns, demanded money from the homeowner and his fianceé. The homeowner and his fianceé complied with the suspects’ demands and gave them their wallets. The three suspects then ran out of the residence and fled the scene in an unknown type vehicle.

    I’ll stick with 9, thank you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/orrin.donohoe Orrin LaMonte Donohoe

    YES!! they have,Almost 15 years ago-I was in a fistfight,NO WEPONS involved,I am now a class c fellion and cannot own a fire arm,YOU define IT!

  • john0476

    Frankly, your “alphabet groups” claim sound bogus to me and your reply is pretty incoherent. Maybe my phone isn’t within reach. Even to speed dial or turn on a speaker, I have to take a hand off the shotgun and divert my attention for a second. That’s all it takes for the advantage to turn. I really have been there and have seen people downed by shotgun, pistol or rifle, even after multiple hits and mortally wounded, do amazing things with their last breaths and bits of strength. Even if they die 5 seconds after killing you, you are just as dead. Not worth the risk, no matter how small. Ultimately, it’s highly unlikely that anyone but I will know (real forensics are not as good as on TV) if he made a threatening move. If he was already dead before the second shot, no harm, no foul. If someone breaks into my home, I owe him neither life nor mercy. With very few exceptions, a kill shot is the way to ensure YOU are the survivor.

  • http://www.facebook.com/orrin.donohoe Orrin LaMonte Donohoe

    WE have for the past 200 + years,where have you ben ? It does NOT work!

  • john0476

    Sadly true that civilian (CCW) and LE instructors are PC prevented from teaching common sense tactics. But spec-ops instructors, whose students are more likely to actually be faced with these situations, teach that you never turn away or divert your attention from a downed hostile unless he is obviously and unquestionably dead. If he isn’t, finish the job and move on. As jcarroll727 says, a wounded rattler can kill you just as dead. Will “codified law” bring you back from the dead? Remember the alternatives: Judged by 12 or carried by 6?

  • propwash72

    Apples and oranges. We’re not talking about SEALs clearing a ship; we’re talking about a homeowner confronting an intruder. We’re also not talking about “diverting attention” from anything. If I take down a home invader you’d better believe the muzzle of my weapon will not be deviating from his head until the police show up…even if that head is mostly scattered on my living room wall. I will also be behind cover with my cell phone and my family will be at the neighbor’s house. There is no reason in a civilian self defense situation to just walk up and shoot an unarmed and immobile intruder “for good measure” as some on this forum are suggesting. If he moves or makes a threatening gesture, then that’s a different story. If I get prosecuted for my actions in the midst of combat, that’s one thing. But it’s idiocy, after the shooting has stopped, to deliberately walk up and shoot someone who’s no longer fighting.

  • ArmyMom2008

    Ouf Forefathers would be shooting by now…………………

  • ArmyMom2008

    I guess you don’t know the history of George Soros. He had a hand in bringing down the leaders and governments of three countries and now has his sites set on the USA. Who backs Obama? George Soros…you may think that gun owners are crazy but the majority of us are decent folks who VOTE…who live normal everyday lives. Watch your government…and the shadow government as well….and we’ll see who wins. We have a few good politicians…but will they withstand the corruption in WA DC? Parhaps…then again…perhaps not.

  • ArmyMom2008

    I have a grip thank you…a very compfortable hand grip on my pistol and very good grip when holding it. The judicial system does NOT run our country nor is it supposed to make laws. That is the job of Congress. Perhaps you need another history lesson or a course in a government class. When we for get our roots, we will die…just like a tree…The US Constitution is a living document and applies to ALL…not just those who wrote it 220 years ago. Just think where you would be without the FIRST ammendment wsp1….no one would be able to read your nonsense.

  • ArmyMom2008

    I do not believe you were a Marine officer. I am married to a Marine and his oath was to defend the CONSTITUTION…not the president…not Congress…not the supreme court…but to defend the Constitution of the United States. That means WE THE PEOPLE sweetie….if the gov were to turn on it’s own people…you can bet your bottom dollar that most of our military would be disbanded for that very reason. They would then band together to retake our country from those who would wish to destroy it. I havspokn to several and all have told me the same…their oath to the Constitution comes above all.

  • ArmyMom2008

    When they come to take your guns, you will be totally vulnerable. It is then that they will take your children, your home and everything you hold dear. If you have no means to protect yourself you are defensless…against all and any who would come after you.

  • ArmyMom2008

    When I attended a firearms safety class, given by one of our local officers I remember it clearly…he told us”If you are in a situation where you feel you have to shoot, shoot to kill because if you only injure or graze the inturder, you could end up dead yourself”….he said SHOOT TO KILL….so that is how I aim when I practice.

  • wsp1

    We haave a judicial sytem that is cahrged with interpreting the Constitution for us…it is not your opinion that counts…sorry.

  • wsp1

    I have been involved in the shooting sports my entire life…i am an NRA Life memeber and Certified instructor…I do not think Gun owners are crazy…I think many people exaggerate the problem, have no true understanding and what to believe what ever is put in front of them because it agrees with their point of view…

  • wsp1

    It is not my problem what you believe or not…unlike many marines..I do not live in the past and try and relive past golries, most of which are over embellished and remembered out of context. I watched two many stupid decision made by macho marines that got men killed…It was my job to critique, evaluate and report on capabilities and results…you read the good stuff…the rest is buried..along with those that died as a result.I also worked with some of the finest foreign troops in the world, and frankly they were as good as any marine we ever put in the field….

  • wsp1

    I am aware of the UN actions etc…it is not news…it is also not a conspiracy…it just is one group trying to exploit an opportunity to fulfill their agenda….

  • wsp1

    Thinki what you want…not my problem. All these “downed” people you saw…all were still threatening you life at the time I suppose….

  • wsp1

    Idiot…of course it works…just because the results are not what you want does not mean it does not work….

  • 7PastorCarmine7

    Shoot always to Kill the intruder Have a Family of Police officers They say if you wound them they will sue you Protection of your family is first and foremost the most important thing

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/West-Geo/100000044476756 West Geo

    I am glad I came upon this article. Usefull information. If I had a shotgun, say inherited from two generations back, I would chose that to defend the home, should it be necessary, rather than any deer rifle or other weapon. The comments had some (a few, at least) good points, too.
    Never too old to learn, I reckon.

  • JingoJohn

    WELL SAID!!!!!!

  • Rick_in_VA

    My primary home defense shotgun is a Mossberg 500, which I bought before the 590 came out. I’d like to find a 590, for the reasons you state. Mine has a Choate top-folder and is loaded with generic Remington 000 buck. I have seen what these will do, as have my kids, when they were still at home.
    Of course, my small frame .45 ACP, loaded with 230gr Federal Hydro-shoks, is always within reach.

  • JingoJohn

    WELL SAID!
    I will copy your post and use it frequently.

  • JingoJohn

    Your following post (excerpted) is one of the best I have read!
    “…I do not believe you were a Marine officer. I am married to a Marine and his oath was to defend the CONSTITUTION…not the president…not Congress…not the supreme court…but to defend the Constitution of the United States. …”

  • JingoJohn

    WELL SAID!

    The CITIZENS of E. Germany tore the STASI and their collaborators apart.
    The CITIZENS executed Nick & Elena Ceauşescu

    “THE” things some/many ‘government employees’ fail to realize is that there are ALWAYS far, FAR more CITIZENS than government employees. AND, that those government employees work FOR ,AND ON BEHALF, of THE CITIZENS.

    All to frequently, as exampled by ,wsp1, government employees fail to recognize and respect the CITIZENS which employ them.

  • shooter85

    When we start shooting it will be because all the laws no longer exist. If we wise up we should get organized to defend our Constitution and our neighbor. Are we wise enough? Do we know when? Which side are we on?

  • JingoJohn

    Myron, YOU are EXACTLY CORRECT! Your and my oath was/is to the CONSTITUTION! Not the past, current, or future regime.

    The rogue, wsp1, has it exactly backwards and displays his BRAIN WASHING and INDOCTRINATION by anti-constitutional elements within the government.

  • JingoJohn

    Soooo by not jacking a round into the empty chamber YOU do it by teleportation?

    In the decades I have used my Rem. 870 it has NEVER been stored with one in the snout, NOR has it been silent when loading. ( I do CARRY it with a chambered rd and an additional rd then inserted in the 8rd mag whilst in the grizz country of the Windrivers and Montana)

  • JingoJohn

    Nice to know the author read my comments on the last ‘shotgun’ essay. (SEE FOOT NOTE.)
    As I stated in those comments:
    ‘…I have personal experience with a “camp robber” at roughly 20 FEET. The jerk damn near SHP when I jacked my Rem. 870. THAT, is not HOME DEFENSE, but close to it….”
    Maybe he did NOT ‘…damn near SHP…. but he DID LEAVE as fast as he could. Which, was THE OBJECT and far, FAR less hassle than reams of paperwork and a sheriffs investigation.
    Perhaps some who “…carried a shotgun in a patrol car for more than 10 years…”
    Want ‘scalps’.
    I want intruders OUT & AWAY FROM my loved ones. I would like to know if the author actually “drew down” or fired on someone in the line of duty? MOST cops NEVER draw a weapon.

    ALSO, the author NEEDS to read (and heed) the comments on shot by “Truncheon” “texexpatriate” and “DaneChile” (SEE FOOT NOTE)

    Keep knocking “bird shot” but consider the following sentences first. The first shot is the most likely to “go bad”. I load bird shot. Why? (a) If it is “good” it will work at the 0-20 FEET ranges I anticipate in MY home. (b) if it is “bad” it stands less chance of retaining enough energy to harm one of my loved ones. Keep in mind you are NOT shooting at 50 or 100 yards at a range! And, you are not shooting at barricaded perps wearing body armor.
    Being comfortable and COMPETENT with the piece you select is probably more important than bore or shot load. The THREE (3) things you NEVER want to forget are:
    1. TARGET IDENTIFICATION
    2. TARGET IDENTIFICATION
    3. TARGET IDENTIFICATION!
    “…Remember, it will probably be dark, you do NOT want to blast your kid coming home for a surprise visit!…” (SEE FOOT NOTE)
    At home, clear chamber, then, I load (1) bird shot, 2-5 single ought buck, 6-7-8 slugs
    When I camp and hunt in Grizzly country, I load only Brenneke “Black Magic” Magnum; 3014 ft/lbs at the muzzle!

    FOOT NOTE:

    Home Defense: 12 Gauge 00 Buckshot Can’t Be Beat
    by Robert M. Engstrom
    03/01/2011, HUMAN EVENTS

  • MyronJPoltroonian

    Exactly. That’s the beauty of our system. We swear an oath (and, thus far, an “Oath to God”, if we wish) to “Preserve, Protect and Defend … ” our “God given rights” as contained within her – not some “Man Determined Privileges”, easily taken away by other men. Having to choose between being a Psych Major, Law Enforcement Major, or a Music Major, I think I chose the right one – music. I never finished college since I kept dropping out to go play music. Why? Because they kept hiring me to go play guitar – for 20 years, in fact. Doesn’t mean I don’t understand, nor care about “Whisky, Sierra, Poppa, One”. Not at all. All who serve lose something. Some more than others. It’s way late, even here on the “Left Coast”. G’nite. “And we’ll keep a light on for ya.”

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XNFRG7PL7DMFTZGYTM4WLWE2KQ NormT

    Don’t Talk to Me of Gun Control

    In 1929, The Soviet Union established gun control from 1929 to 1953, Approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated,

    In 1938, Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, 13 Million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1935, China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were unable to defend themselves and were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1964, Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1970, Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1956, Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, one million “educated” people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    That places total victims who lost their lives because of gun control at approximately
    56 million in the last century!

    Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the next time someone talks in favor of gun control, find out which group of citizens they wish to have exterminated!

    Author: John J. McNight
    Published: March 16, 2000
    Source: Asheville Tribune

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XNFRG7PL7DMFTZGYTM4WLWE2KQ NormT

    In 1929, The Soviet Union established gun control from 1929 to 1953, Approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated,

    In 1938, Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, 13 Million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1935, China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were unable to defend themselves and were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1964, Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1970, Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1956, Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, one million “educated” people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    That places total victims who lost their lives because of gun control at approximately
    56 million in the last century!

    Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the next time someone talks in favor of gun control, find out which group of citizens they wish to have exterminated!

    Author: John J. McNight
    Published: March 16, 2000
    Source: Asheville Tribune

  • ArmyMom2008

    wsp1 I am very fortunate Marine wife. My husband served under Reagan and was a peacetime Marine. He has no “past glories” as you put it. Our daughter however, a Sgt in the US Army served in Iraq and Italked with her last night….she too took the oath to defend the US Constitution.

  • 23rd_Americal

    Here’s how we do it at my ranch. We have no small children and no one lives with my wife and me. When we do have visitors our guns are safely put away. Every gun in the house is loaded and ready to fire with no noise and us old dumb hillbilly cajuns know how to take a safety off with no noise, learned that lesson early in life hunting deer. If you’re in my house uninvited at night or otherwise, I’m not giving you any chance that I don’t have to and that includes making unnecessary noises like chambering a round for the noise effect. I’ll avoid a fight with all that’s in me, but when it comes down to life or death with me and my family, I’m gonna do everything in my power to stop the perp’s aggression including shooting him at close range (room range) with a shotgun, rifle, or any number of pistols. I’m not going to announce, “Hey Mr. Bad Guy, I know you are in my house, you’re not supposed to be here, so now I’m racking my shotgun and I hope it scares you off even though you’ve intentionally broken into the inner sanctum of my home”. After I’ve identified the unwanted guest, I’m going to terminate the threat with extreme predjudice and will use all my experience in law enforcement, competition shooting (three disciplines) and the conviction that the perp has violated my sacred space. We treat every gun as fully loaded and have trained our grown kids that every gun is fully loaded and that includes one in the pipe. We’ve also instilled in them that the only certain, reliable safety is where the muzzle of the gun is pointed. So, I thoought I would explain how we do it here at our ranch. If the boogey man comes, we’ll not use scare tactics when the chips are down and we’ll do it quietly as possible before the big bang.

  • JingoJohn

    Sheriff Joe Arpaio for PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!

    CHECK OUT THE ESSAY!!!!!!!!!

    Exaggerating US Border Violence?
    by Chuck Norris
    03/22/2011 (Human Events)

    “…….“Given the level of danger posed by the smugglers, deputies and qualified armed posse volunteers including the SWAT team will be equipped to respond on the ground with M-16s and other firearms including the Sheriff’s 50-caliber machine gun,” Arpaio, who has been called “America’s toughest sheriff,” said in a statement……..”

  • JingoJohn

    CLOSER TO 100,000,000

    PRAISE THE LORD and PASS THE AMMUNITION!
    Here are 100 million more rounds for you and others!

    http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm

    If the link won’t work, go to jpfo.org (Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership) and

    see “DEATH by GUN CONTROL”

  • JingoJohn

    GOOGLE/BING SEARCH

    “DEATH by GUN CONTROL”

  • jcarroll727

    http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehempowered%2Ecom%2Fimages%2Fass%2Ephp

  • LouieInSeattle

    Did you not get your guns back? Or reimbursement?

  • LouieInSeattle

    When the time comes, wsp1, you will apparently be the first in line to turn in your weapons. If you think the wisdom of the founding fathers is hogwash, you are a fool.

  • LouieInSeattle

    Apparently that quote is bogus. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1791/did-hitler-ban-gun-ownership
    But read the whole article for interesting information on gun ownership in Eastern Europe.

  • LouieInSeattle

    I’m surprised a Taurus Judge wasn’t mentioned. It can hold 5 shotgun shells, or .45 caliber bullets, in whatever mix you’d like.

  • teaer

    You are dead on target.

  • travelinbob

    Look at the ‘walking guns’ scandal that the MSM and libs are so diligently ignoring. The ‘workers’, rank-and-file agents strenuously objected to the whole thing, and then did what they were told anyway. That is what we’re facing- agents with ethics, but w/o the cahones to do the right thing. The ‘right thing’ will be left up to the individual citizen sometime in the night.
    Also, beware of the ‘hunters’ that have no problem with gun ownership, except that no one needs the ‘black’ weapons- they’ll stab you in the back as well. Remember, the 2nd amandment wasn’t written to protect the logical equivalent of basketballs and hockey sticks, but true weapons.
    ’nuff said

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  • bobjon

    sorry,youre wrong my friend ,,40 to 50 million well armed and ammo’ed gunowners in a prolonged guerilla war on home ground ,with all the govt toys and (which most wont work when wanted) and they scarce for ones skilled to operate them ,and many troops wont fire on own people and will switch sides ,,it wouldnt be any guess who’d win. this military couldn’t even occupy and stop resstance in Iraq with only 25-30 million population. anyhow many militias you don’t know about are preparing for it when it happens ,,and many individuals will join in when does ,,how will it start? no one knows,,, are lots of guesses. it will be an obscure event ,and probably will be triggererd by gun confiscation as was in 1775 ,lexington and concord . by the way, govt snoops, im not involved ,,or supporting anything ,,am too old and physical impaired ,just know whats going on. as so many don’t. done my combat over 60 years ago. but remain a patriot till death. suggest you folks who are unknowing check with Mark Koernke’s Militia site ,and listen to the broadcasts ,,where there are lots of communication between various militias . in states where there are no large formations of militia there are many many fire teams of 4 to 5 well trusted men ,who will communicate and join together when time comes . I don’t advocate ,,only know unless feds back off it will happen. yes radio communications are being set up and ready,also private versions of the internet for when govt shuts this one down which they will. ,please don’t answer this, as I have no time to argue with you nor desiire it and wont . if you are this unknowing ,I pity you and the likes .
    —– Original Message —–
    From: Disqus
    To: bobj_527@msn.com
    Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:38 AM
    Subject: [heo] Re: Shotguns: The Best Felon Killing Home Defense Tool Ever Made

    hicusdicus wrote, in response to bobjon:

    No it is not!!!!! The modern military is not intimidated by the trinket guns of civilians. What is holding them up is the rule of law. When it gets changed it is all over. It must be stopped before it starts.

    Link to comment: http://disq.us/1kc3yo

  • donkenall

    Maybe so, but if they plan to pick gun owners off one at a time, not creating too much press attention, then this would require them leaving to come back later with a bigger operation. The person they came for would be guilty of nothing more than gun ownership. A show of force would make them think twice. Also on that call list would be local news media. The next time they came, there would be hundreds on the lawn.

  • ArmyMom2008

    Stop it before it starts is all I see you say yet you make no suggestions as to HOW to stop it. You talk like a politician yourself…”I promise ???? will happen” but they never say how. You’re so smart…tell me how to stop it before it starts…you cannot because it has already started….the takeover has already begun. And yes our forefathers would be shooting by now and if they were alive today you can bet the Continental Amry would be as well. They knew how to ralley the people. Your silly comment about weapons was just that…silly.

  • ArmyMom2008

    There you go again…stop it before it starts but you have not said HOW…

  • ArmyMom2008

    If our farefathers were alive today THEY would be the modern military…you are a sad and sorry person hicusdicus…

  • donkenall

    This is not a promotion of anarchy or armed revolution, just an observation of history.

    “Give Me A Brick Wall and Twelve Good Men”

    When the Marxist communist socialists took over Russia, wouldn’t it have spared unthinkable suffering and immeasurable loss of life if conscientious people had just rounded up the leaders and shot them all?

    When the national socialists took over Germany, wouldn’t it have spared unthinkable suffering and immeasurable loss of life if conscientious people had just rounded up the leaders and shot them all?

    When the Marxist communist socialist progressives took over China, wouldn’t it have spared unthinkable suffering and immeasurable loss of life if conscientious people had just rounded up the leaders and shot them all?

    When the Marxist communist socialist progressives took over Cambodia, wouldn’t it have spared unthinkable suffering and immeasurable loss of life if conscientious people had just rounded up the leaders and shot them all?

    Does anyone think that the Marxist communist socialist progressives are taking over the United States of America?

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  • Not_in_Denial

    That’s the point, and I think you know that. One person can’t do much against an army. But it’s a d*mn sight better to have some passion about such things that to simply be blase and dismissive toward those who do. That’s the attitude that led us into this mess. I would remind you that the ‘heavily armed troops’ are also citizens.

  • Not_in_Denial

    Man, talk about condescending and judgemental. You must have the credentials to back that attitude up? Actually it works much better to surrender right up front, that way you avoid such nasty outcomes.

  • ArmyMom2008

    Stopped how? How will you stop this thing from snowballing down hill and running over all of us?

  • perrazimx8

    Your asumption is, our military will attack their fellow citizens. I don’t believe this is true. My experience with our military personell is, they have higher ethical standards than des the average civilian. I do not believe they would follow orders in viloation of the Constitution.

  • ArmyMom2008

    I never claimed to know it all but I know enough. Storming the govt with guns blazing is not the answer. I never said it was. I will however protect my right to own a gun should someone wish to ummmm…confiscate it. I will protrect my property should it become necessary. There was a movie back in 1987 …a mini series on ABC called AMERIKA….the bloodless coup of the US taken over by Russia. It was well done and very sad…and people then said “Oh this could never happen here”. It is happening only it’s not Russia. It’s our own government. People in this country are apathetic and for the most part, lazy not wanting to get involved until it’s too late. It is almost too late…I don’t know if voting will change our government or not…it did in 2008 when Obama was elected. He promised change and delivered it…and now we don’t like his changes. I didn’t vote for him. No I am not gay nor am I a liberal and yes you are sad and sorry.
    It’s so easy to say we should do this or do that but never saying exactly what we should do and after reading your posts, that is all you say. So you’re 75…so what…you still have a brain and can think can’t you? At your age you should have some wisdom to share…not just benign comments. Yes I am an Armymom and Marine wife….but that does not mean I know it all. It means I have spoken with people of both branches of the military and gotten their input…nothing more.

  • ArmyMom2008

    Thank You for your service. My daughter a Sgt., US Army Combat Engineer out of Ft Knox.

  • jcarroll727

    http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecoloredhumor%2Ecom%2Fimages%2Fass%2Ephp

  • byars_e

    Agreed. However, the hunters and gun owners constitute the largest standing army in the world.
    On shotguns as a home defense weapon I recommend the Remington 887 12 gauge Nitro Magnum Tactical with 3.5 inch magnum 00 Buckshot. With a smooth pump action 18.5 inch barrel, 5 shells in the tube and one in the chamber it is an awesome home defense weapon. With polymer armor-lock anti rust coating over all exterior parts, it can withstand harsh environments. It has a tactical cylinder breach type choke and an ultra recoil absorbing pad. It is equipped with a top rail and a rail near the choke for a light or laser.
    They are in short supply. Get one while you can.

  • bobjon

    yes, that sounds a dandy,,but folks in my group seem to have all gone to the saiga 12 ak 47 type semi auto shotgun, seem to be impeccable reliable as ak’s are, and with removable magazines have capacity of 10.12 .15 ,or 20 rds and also drums (12 and 20 shot) available .so I went ahead and ordererd me one while they were available , I let loose the 1st 5 before I ordererd any hi caps and was sold .little recoil due to gas operate.and goes like a machine gun almost ,,ha ,, if you want to see one in action ,,go google and type in saiga 12 utube and are lots of videos with action . impressive . bought the wife a .410 of the same type and will get some hi caps for it before they are banned . actually they apparrantly have banned import now and hear they may ban possession ,,we shall see ,maybe ill buy the one you recommend in case they take my saiga away. no use dying over one gun or 2 ,,when we could be useful in another way later .seems they are going to ban ALL tactical though, we shall see. ( I am FFL) so kinda gotta go along with their nonsense so not lose my whole arsenal ,,ha ,,well don’t really have that many ,,but some neat ones Id hate to lose .
    —– Original Message —–
    From: Disqus
    To: bobj_527@msn.com
    Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 5:55 PM
    Subject: [heo] Re: Shotguns: The Best Felon Killing Home Defense Tool Ever Made

    byars_e wrote, in response to bobjon:

    Agreed. However, the hunters and gun owners constitute the largest standing army in the world.
    On shotguns as a home defense weapon I recommend the Remington 887 12 gauge Nitro Magnum Tactical with 3.5 inch magnum 00 Buckshot. With a smooth pump action 18.5 inch barrel, 5 shells in the tube and one in the chamber it is an awesome home defense weapon. With polymer armor-lock anti rust coating over all exterior parts, it can withstand harsh environments. It has a tactical cylinder breach type choke and an ultra recoil absorbing pad. It is equipped with a top rail and a rail near the choke for a light or laser.
    They are in short supply. Get one while you can.

    Link to comment: http://disq.us/1kfzi2

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  • hicusdicus

    Why do you keep asking me this stuff? I am just making statements about what I think could happen.

  • Muhjesbud

    I understand where you’re coming from, Russ. I’m in no way anti LEO in the “dem against us” mentality, and when I was one (like you??)I tried very hard to always do the right thing and not shit on peoples rights. I fully realize, as everyone should, that there simply can’t be law enforcement without the inevitable situation of good cops/bad cops. So all of us probably realize that all ATF (and even FBI! lol, ) are definately Not gun nazis.

    So I redact my statment above to mean mainly to fight the policy proliferation tactics of the marxist anti-constitution traitors in the G beurocracy who abuse the power of these agencies for their own commielib agendas, and give otherwise good cops a bad image in the public eye.

    Although, as someone said above, perhaps the ‘good ATF guys’ who don’t appreciate trampling our second ammendment, maybe should consider a career change? Or why don’t we just just eliminate the ‘gunowner policing’ section of the agency and make the agents spend that time on stemming the proliferation of Islamofacism? Far more noble and important mission for our country today? And if they do this with the ‘enthusiasm’ exhibited at gun shows or FFL dealers, or trying to entrap simply stupid gun sellers, etc. Jumpin JEEEhad!, then we’ll applaud them because surely they would do a good job!

    Back in the days i was one of the few cops with a college degree and because of my Special Forces combat training with EOD and such, I had the opportunity to do a lateral transfer to BATF for an actual pay increase compared to my city cop salary. It seemed like a upward career move at the time…

    But I just couldn’t stomach the self-righteous and strangely gleeful confiscational mentality of this agency, having worked with and around them for so many years…

    Especially since i was the kind of cop who used his rather extensive and relatively powerful ‘discretionary powers’ to save my real bosses, the taxpayers, some money by never arresting decent citizens of the city for carrying their (mostly saturday night specials back then) pocket pistols just so they could feel safer and be able to protect themselves against the numeruos array of usual suspects in the big concrete jungle.

    I guess I was one of the ‘bad cops’.

  • Muhjesbud

    Hey dude! it’s me, Muhj!
    fancy meeting you in blogwars again…you never finished telling me what the biggest waste of money was, besides my ex’es with my credit cards?!
    What State are you from? Weather’s warmin up! looks like Spring, i think? Starting to stock up on plinkin targets by drinking as many cans of beer as i can! Had to buy some more ammo due to 0-bummer’s newest ‘G-Gangsta’ moves so I cashed in the semi-trailer full of cans i had saved from the winter…

  • SC Rooster

    It’s a good little piece, the write up that is, and I agree with it for the most part – I really do. But it is amazingly similar to something Donald Copp wrote over at MilCopp Tactical. http://www.milcopptactical.com/shotty.htm Coincidence? I hope so. At the very least I am happy to see the subject being breached on Human Events.

  • jcarroll727

    http%3A%2F%2Fberlin%2Dinvestments%2Ecom%2Fimages%2Fagu%2Ephp

  • hicusdicus

    The worst way there is to squander money is to never spend it .. . Money is just numbers that represent the fruits of your labors and if you never use it you have wasted your life. Leaving it to your relatives is the second worst way.

  • donkenall

    I forgot to add the local media/TV to the call list. You want the public to know what’s going on.

  • Muhjesbud

    HAH! yup! right on, dude!! Money is like a pile of manure. Leave it sit in a pile and it starts to smell. spread it around a lot and it helps things grow.

  • SC Rooster

    It’s a good read and I am happy to see it being discussed here – but it is amazingly similar to a piece that appeared at http://www.milcopptactical.com/shotty.htm

  • jcarroll727

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  • BigFingtalk

    Well said.

  • Gregg Weber

    The soldiers that ran over the citizens in Tianannmen Square were the People’s Liberation Army. They obeyed orders just as the Nazi did but probably for different reasons (honor of the oath vs fear).
    A scary video is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrMxl-T-HwY
    I saw the Milgram Experiment on Candid Camera in the early 60′s and it still scares me.
    A third point that every soldier and marine must answer: There is a line separating fighting for the people and Constitution of the United States against an insurrection on one side; and on the other fighting for the people and the Constitution of the United States against a tyrant acting “under color of law”. On which side of that line would you stand as a soldier who is under orders to disobey any unlawful orders that might come your way?
    Considering Milgram; it scares me.

  • DauTieng59

    I recommend you try firing at a target that returns your fire or fired on you first. Shooting a deer at a feeding station isn’t the same as combat. Most hubters and gun owners would shit themselves at the first firefight. If you fight with a shotgun you’ll be dead before you’re within range.

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    hey Disqus, the differences in my life now due to this are insane http://g.msn.com.br/BR9/1369.0?http://cnbc7.com

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5Y6ECUATXOAE777VNKBBXCJRMI Jessica

    or what happen in THE WACO MASSACRE
    …or about the Massacre at Ruby Ridge
    for that matter!!

  • Elliot Riley

    Thank you for your statement about the military. I’ve been in for 10 years and have never gone against my belief in the United States of America or those that I serve. In the event I was told to do so, I would not do it. I can tell you that the military fits very well with the constitutionalist crowd and that if you believe that gun owners are a problem, then you’re counting out that the military would be another one.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bfgair1 Bruce Erickson

    President Bush Sr. already signed that bill on his last day in office.  So that bill is already a fact.  leave it to a Republican to sneek one like that in the back door on us.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_74ZGFJRVVVHLY3SEJLFEYHSHYQ Maly

    I totally agree with you. Many people do not realize the importance of our 2nd amendment rights. While the criminals and gang bangers do not register their guns…law abiding citizens who have their arms on record will have it confiscated down the road and will be defenseless. It happened during New Orleans when Katrina hurricane hit. We may even have to get a few non registered fire arms hidden for such cases like these but be prepared to be busted because that against the law.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001286014198 Edward Skye

    Here you are talking about gun bans. While “collecting” guns. Playing with guns. Bunch of cowards! OUR COUNTRY IS FUCKING DYING! Sad as bunch of pansies. They already took guns in Katrina. Military guys followed orders. A FEW didn’t. VERY FEW PEOPLE!!!! You want to sit here and talk about gun bans. And got the nerve to even have an opinion. You are no American! Your DUTY is in Dereliction!!!!!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QGUXUWV7JFBUONF5IGOTWKNLNE Tom

    Go ahead boobjon pull down on an American Law Enforcement Officer. You may win the first volley but in the end you will cease to exist.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kurt-Hahn/100001028266665 Kurt Hahn

     25% will fire this is a fact

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/5AQQM2ZVCMNQDVZ2LAOY472YZQ tuwelita

    listen up people.  there is no such thing as gun registration. you do not have to register your guns with anyone.  all you people out there who have gone to the police and “registered” your guns are stupid. that is just a way to compile a list of all the people who have guns so when the time comes to consficate all guns they will know where to go get them.  you on that list will be the first to loose your guns.

  • thetruthisnot4free

    They are human

    many will just “follow orders” like they did when Katrina hit and ( its on youtube) innocent people gave up their only means of self defense while the criminals who broke into the gun shops and were shooting at the help that was flying in, kept the weapons

    think about it

  • thetruthisnot4free

    thank you for reminding us of the MIlgram Experiment

  • ConservativeJoe

    Human Events, Are you serious? “While this is not guaranteed to stop a determined attacker, it is certainly an attention getter.” Did you ever hear of an attacker that took a solid torso hit at a range of under 40 feet, (Maximum home interior space distance), with a 12 gauge load of 00-buck shot and still continue with his assault? Such a hit will not just get his attention, it will make him dead!
    Just one of these shotgun charges has twice the power of a .44 caliber magnum pistol shot. There is one exception to this scenario. If the bad guy continues to move after being hit he is probably wearing a bullet resistant vest. Aim the next shot at his head.
    Yes, the home defender must aim his or her shotgun at the home invader, not just shoot from the hip. At short range, buck shot acts like a solid slug because the pellets are still closely packed. You don’t start to get the “scatter gun” effect until the load has traveled at least 50 feet.
    If you do miss an across the room shot and you are using a semi-automatic or pump shotgun you have time to send a second load if he is still advancing.
    The fast firing shotgun gives you the best chance of being the last person standing in a life or death confrontation.
    By the way, don’t drop your guard when the bad guy goes down for the count, he might have an accomplice.

  • ConservativeJoe

    ArmyMom 2008, Take heart, there are more citizens that think like you than those that think like the anti-gun liberals. Ask the next anti-gun liberal you see what he or she thinks about the person that would make the following statement. “”A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” This is a quote from a person that thinks just like you do ArmyMom 2008; his name was George Washington.

  • TanongSak

    You’re right. I have a good friend who is a former marine. I asked him about this. He said that if Obama thinks that the marines, in particular, would turn their guns against their own people on his order, he just doesn’t understand our soldiers. It’s bad enough that they have to salute this imposter as commander-in-chief.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tony.linkins.3 Tony Linkins

    Don’t think so, well watch this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyfkQkchlu4

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/CTVZNFAWXU7NFT4UQ6O4SALLWE Michael

    Sorry disagree 99%-the Judge 45 acp/410 shot, it is a revolver and the shot can hit anything and the slug will finish the program

  • jimpeel

    A shotgun is useless if they are holding another member of your family. It is hard to “take the shot” past the ear of your loved one with a shotgun. I will stick to my handgun.